Clumping Bamboo Footprint at Maturity

[bambambooboo]

Hi forum. I've posted some in the past but not in a while.

I garden with clumping bamboo in Florida zone 9a/9b (the newest maps show 9b but I'm not convinced so try to plant mostly for 9a, especially because a few years back we had one of those 200-year cold events).

I'm not new at this, having been growing since in my prior zone 10 garden when I used to buy off Robert when he sold out of his backyard, before moving his operation to the nursery. But, as I've been dividing every year since, and now relocating to an acre property and dividing some more, I don't have a real good feel on what the footprints might eventually be on my clumpers.

I have been to Fairchild of course but not to the G-ville garden yet, so I've some idea on how big some stuff gets though I don't know for how long what I saw had been growing. I've heard to figure 1/3rd of height for eventual footprint. Also now Robert has new on his website a search feature with supposed mature footprints. But I remain uncertain as to whether I've left enough room for growth and maintenance.

Essentially I'm planting the property border with a double row creating a tunnel but also there are other plantings such as a "forested" area with trail running through it as well as various feature displays. I want to maintain clearings within the garden and I plant most of the taller stuff on the north side for sunlight or where there is existing partial shade from mature pines and oaks.

I try to keep at least 6 feet in from the fence but the back which I planted first is already closing in so may move that line up. The larger boos I've given more space.

Here are some examples

One of the tunnels. Tunnel "walls" are set about 13-14 ft apart. It's mostly alternating seabreeze & graceful with endcaps of angel mist and a center section with monastery


There's about 12 feet between the tunnel wall and fence, inside of which is a line running along the length of the tunnel made of Asian lemons set on centers like so...


Then inside the tunnel I've got four monasteries to create an inner structure which will lead from tunnel to secret garden (area surrounded by pines and saw palmetto palms


And then here's the view walking from what will be the secret garden, back into the tunnel, that's lako flanked by Asian lemon with a foreground of sunburst. All that in turn is flanked by the aforementioned monastery which is then flanked by angel mist before going back to the alternating seabreeze & graceful clumps which make up the main section of that tunnel.


Here's some golden Hawaiian about 6 ft off the fence which I think I have to give more room or be prepared to maintain. Though I suspect we'll have enough intermittent cold spells to control the growth.


Same with my teddy bear, about 7 feet off the fence. Believe it or not, this is one of the first I ever bought off Robert but it's been divided and transported and killed back during a freeze, basically typical of my tender loving care. The poor thing.


One I'm real concerned about after reading another thread on this forum is Parker giant, which I have about 12 feet apart on either side of a different section of tunnel and set 13 feet off the fence as I was expecting that to go big by pictures I'd seen. (in front of cart and behind shovel)


Here's showing distance of Parker to fence as described above


And here I just snapped this to give an idea of the clearings I do which are surrounded by the tunnels


My main issue with this little hobby is that I'm getting, yikes, old. I'm mid 50s and hope this is my last garden. So I can probably keep the bamboo thinned out well enough over the next 15-20 years, maybe do an annual garage/culm sale or gift them to neighbors as I've already been doing. But I've quite a bit of longevity in the family so if I live into my 80s & 90s, this could turn problematic. So I think for now I want to assure myself that I'm not creating a future maintenance nightmare.

Currently I've about 300 clumps and expect about 400 total by the time I finish the garden.

Here's my species list to date (pardon me if I don't look up all the technical words you guys like to use but I can clarify if need be) :

Tropical Blue
Asian Lemon
Graceful
Alphonse Karr
Angel mist
Mexican Weeping
Timor
Nana
Seabreeze
Buddha Belly
Oldhamii
Monastery
Sunburst
Tropical Black
Kanapaha
Betung Hitam
Teddy Bear
Bambusa Membranaceus Striatus
Textilis Scranton
Golden Hawaiian
Flavidovirens
Giant Parker

So essentially what I'm looking for is what might be their footprints at maturity, at about what age is that given my hardiness zone and climate and assuming I stop dividing them.

And what I also don't understand is what exactly determines a maximum footprint of a clumper or is there even such a thing. What stops it from growing further 10-30 years down the line? Does it naturally only go out so far from its original center, what determines that and how long does that take? I realize that was a little involved so just let me know if I need to clarify any of that. Thank you.

[JWH]

Beautiful collection of sub-tropical clumpers you have!

Wish I could help answer your questions but I only have limited experience growing temperate runners, and smaller montane clumpers.

So essentially what I'm looking for is what might be their footprints at maturity, at about what age is that given my hardiness zone and climate and assuming I stop dividing them.

And what I also don't understand is what exactly determines a maximum footprint of a clumper or is there even such a thing. What stops it from growing further 10-30 years down the line? Does it naturally only go out so far from its original center, what determines that and how long does that take? I realize that was a little involved so just let me know if I need to clarify any of that. Thank you.

I've also wondered how a clumping bamboos footprint changes over years and decades down the line...for instance I have a fargesia rufa with a footprint of 7ft in diameter currently, 10ft in diameter is usually listed as its maximum footprint, but in 20 years from now I wouldn't think that it would remain 10ft in diameter and centered on the original planting spot.

I would speculate that (without divisions being taken) it will continue expanding outward and eventually break up into several individual clumps as the oldest canes and rhizome connections die of old age. Flowering and death and seedling plants would also have to be considered over a long timespan.

[bambambooboo]

Beautiful collection of sub-tropical clumpers you have!

Wish I could help answer your questions but I only have limited experience growing temperate runners, and smaller montane clumpers.

I've also wondered how a clumping bamboos footprint changes over years and decades down the line...for instance I have a fargesia rufa with a footprint of 7ft in diameter currently, 10ft in diameter is usually listed as its maximum footprint, but in 20 years from now I wouldn't think that it would remain 10ft in diameter and centered on the original planting spot.

I would speculate that (without divisions being taken) it will continue expanding outward and eventually break up into several individual clumps as the oldest canes and rhizome connections die of old age. Flowering and death and seedling plants would also have to be considered over a long timespan.

Thanx JWH. Just semi-tropics here though. Having moved to colder climes from south Florida, I tried growing my sub-tropical sacred Bali which I actually got to survive the coldest period this area had seen in its recent history but then lost it the following year to a relatively mild freeze. Also I'm not sure yet if I can do the Buddha bellies as I've lost more than I've kept alive so far. I'm hoping to at least get it established below ground so maybe eventually I might only get at worst top kill every few years.

Interesting speculation, I hadn't thought in those terms of it breaking apart by old age and reforming as individual clumps.

I tried googling and have not yet found anything like that documented. I'd think even most professional growers would unlikely have more than 20 years experience to know what happens to them beyond that point. I can be a bit suspicious so I wonder if a grower would admit that a plant might become unmanageable in two to three decades, particularly as most people don't stay put that long.

I'd love to hear some stories or see some documentation or at least to have some pictures of older clumps with information as to when it was first planted.

[ricshaw]

I have my clumping bamboo planted about 3 feet from the fence.

My wife once commented; What am I suppose to do if something happened to you?

My answer; Use the Sawzall and Roundup.

[ricshaw]

I've also wondered how a clumping bamboos footprint changes over years and decades down the line...for instance I have a fargesia rufa with a footprint of 7ft in diameter currently, 10ft in diameter is usually listed as its maximum footprint, but in 20 years from now I wouldn't think that it would remain 10ft in diameter and centered on the original planting spot.
I would speculate that (without divisions being taken) it will continue expanding outward and eventually break up into several individual clumps as the oldest canes and rhizome connections die of old age. Flowering and death and seedling plants would also have to be considered over a long timespan.

I do maintenance on my clumpers. I cut and remove clums and do some legging up trimming on some to improve the appearance.

Here is a video by Robert Saporito that shows what I do.

[dependable]

My answer; Use the Sawzall and Roundup.

Or hire someone with a machine.

I saw an older, unmaintantaned clump of tall bamboo in Maui once, it was at higher elavation, not a tropical. The interior seemed to be clogged with a lot of dead culms, and most of the growth was happening in slowly expanding perimeter. Clump was about 20x20 ft.

Very nice looking plantings you have there.

[needmore]

Yeah, I've seen many old plantings of them when I lived in Hawai'i and they usually looked junky. I suspect that it might help to limit new canes to only a few each year to keep the footprint down and to cull an equal number to keep it from looking crappy. Might also be a good strategy to initially plant slightly away from where you really want it so that when it moves into the desired spot it is producing larger sizes, something I do with runners sometimes.

[bambambooboo]

Here's the new search criteria added to Robert's website



Just from looking at that, I don't even know what he means by "mature clump". Is that the footprint size "at maturity" since there doesn't seem to be a defined point which might be considered "at maturity" of a footprint which might always mature. Or is maturity referring to the point at which culms reach their full diameter, in which case, what does giving the footprint even do aside from maybe identifying a loose clumper from a tight one. But even then, you'd need to know some time tables.

It just seems to me this would be useful information which ought to be added to databases so gardeners know what they're getting into. It might not be a runner, but that doesn't mean it ever stops growing. Yes it is easily controlled while a gardener is able, but what happens as the gardener grows old and can't easily cut and remove a 40 ft or an 80 ft culm? I guess that's when I sell and move into a cozy apartment with some lucky bamboo soaking in a glass jar alongside my teeth.

As to thinning out, of course I would do that as long as I'm able. I think I got my first boo back in the 90s but I've been forever dividing since and just now considering what happens when I have all the divisions I wanted and start to let it all just grow.

Here's a good pic I found on web of a nicely thinned out clump. I love the idea of that hollowed out center and can see doing that eventually to some of the interior clumps that I'm not using as a visual barrier. And also i'd imagine I can at least somewhat control the direction of how a clump expands, for instance, by thinning out more so on the fence side as they encroach on that.



But what I'd love to see are pictures of mature clumps which have been let to grow, of different types and to have also details such as how long it took it to get like that. At least that way we can better plant so at least a boo might not become a problem within the gardener's lifetime.

[needmore]

You might search posts on this site by Roy Rogers, he was very active a few years ago but came to his senses in retirement and found better ways to spend his time, he posted lots of good photos of mature, well maintained clumps and good info, his photos are populating the species database here as well.

[bambambooboo]

Yeah, thanx Needmore. Good idea. I've been to Roy's a few times a few years back and got some boo from him, some of pics below. I don't recall exactly but I think he's got some planted deep within the property but also if I recall right on the north side he's got some near the property line which could present a future problem. And while they have been well maintained, he's getting older too. I didn't think then to discuss this but I wonder if it is a concern for him. When I get a moment I should go visit again and have a better look with keeping the idea of future footprints in mind.

It just seems to me that this isn't something often discussed. While there is discussion of controlling the growth of runners so gardeners would expect that issue, clumpers are presented as easily maintained, no barriers required, without, it seems to me, consideration of what happens to a boo over a period of decades during which time the gardener becomes physically less able to maintain a clump.

This is a monastery from Roy. Started as a tiny thing that he'd gotten from someone else to experiment with. I've divided since into four clumps and am now letting them grow but will divide again when it puts up some more mature culms as I really love it.


Here's Kanapaha from Roy (the clump in the foreground). I started with the one and have numerous clumps now with finally some powder on some of the thicker culms.


Here's Betung Hitam from Robert's place. I tried dividing when younger but then had some cold leaving me with one division alive which has grown to this. I'll divide again not this year but maybe next. I want at least two clumps in case we get a bad freeze and some top kill, just to help assure that at least one comes back. I planted behind there a Golden Hawaiian thinking it would look nice eventually intermixed but since seeing the hollowed out circle online (web pic posted above), now I'm going to do that with a backdrop of Asian lemon along the outside of the tunnel in the background. I love putting the blacks and yellows in the same line of sight.


And here's my bumble bee line of Tropical Black (originally from Robert) alternating with what will eventually be Sunbursts (I'd gotten one from Robert & one from Roy) though currently filling in with Hawaiian (don't remember from where) with just one segment in Sunburst. I've had a terrible time dividing the Sunbursts with all my divisions failing so far. I started with two, let them grow a season, divided, now have just two. So this time I'm going wait a few years I think and try again to divide the more mature culms, in hopes of that being more successful than was dividing while young. Then I'll relocate the Golden and replace with the Sunburst divisions.

[needmore]

I think Roy had a post here where he was experimenting with controlling that one by the fence that you refer to, I also think he looks in on us here as well...howdy Roy...

[bambambooboo]

I think Roy had a post here where he was experimenting with controlling that one by the fence that you refer to, I also think he looks in on us here as well...howdy Roy...

I recall reading that. Something about stepping stones or concrete pavers. With all the divisions I've planted, I don't think that practical for me even if it worked. Essentially I think I'm going to have to leave myself access space to keep cutting rhizomes back for as long as I'm able. I wonder if the rhizomes eventually scar if cut enough on one side so as to discourage future growth there? Or maybe the new growth shouldn't be as mature as areas not cut so that might make it easier to manage. Though I don't know what happens below grade at full maturity because I've just been dividing so much all these years.

Anyway, also hi to Roy if you are stalking. Or, on this forum, maybe that should be culming.

[needmore]

I wonder if you can keep adding soil over time to create a nice mound where you want the clump to encourage it to rise up some and a very shallow trench around the perimeter then to expose the rhizomes for snipping off?

[bambambooboo]

Interesting suggestion though I don't know if my soil requires that. It's pretty much sand. No rocks, no clay. So to find the rhizome when I divide, I just stick a shovel into the ground between the new culm (I usually divide after a year's growth, when it has leaves and some roots) and the parent clump and tap with the shovel blade below grade. It's real obvious when you hit one. Though as clumps grow together for a privacy hedge, or the tunnels, it might get harder to figure from where a new culm comes. I might dig to expose the top to be sure of what I'm cutting or just sawzall away. Usually I cut as near to the parent as possible which I hope will help maintain a footprint, then I just dig a root ball and job done.

While relatively young, both them and I, not a problem. But some of these boo will get quite big and thick as mature clumps. I presume the rhizomes will become equally robust. So I guess at that point instead of taking divisions, I'd cut before the culm grows too much or harvest early for food. For larger culms that I allow to grow, I've purposely planted the larger boos a distance equal to their theoretical height away from any structures to allow for an eventual TIMBERRRRRR. And even when near a fence line, I've planted some smaller boos to help catch any larger ones from falling on a neighboring property for when I need to prune out older culms. There's some logistics to this.

Bamboo is not your grandmother's rose garden.

[needmore]

Yea, I am thinking that with soil being added periodically they may grow up instead of out but who knows. You have a great collection.