Who is growing Ph. 'Shanghai 3' and how does it compare to..

[JD_z7a_NJ]

Phyllostachys dulcis in terms of size, growth rate and form? Last I heard it was thought to possibly be a form of P. dulcis or possibly even P. iridescens. I would be interested in hearing any current thoughts/opinions on what it may be, hybrid origin has also been discussed at times. I currently don't grow either type, any thoughts on whether I should hold out until I can get my hands of S3 or just go for P. dulcis.
Thanks,
JD

[Nicholas]

I have two small Shanghai 3 which were bought from Pavel Rezl in the Czech Republic. I believe he told me that they come from Jos in Holland which is of relevance because apparently there are a number of different species being labelled "Shanghai 3". If I recall correctly the name was given to one of three clones received which was originally labelled propinqua, but don't quote me on that as I can't seem to find the source where I read it.

Although the plants are still rather small (1,5 and 2m ) which makes identifying the shoots a lot harder they definitely show most characteristics of iridescens, especially the red/purple colouration with yellowish edges on the sheaths and quite elongated sheath tips.

Just to illustrate the confusion with Shanghai 3, Fred Vaupel actually lists two different species on the German website http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/ depending on how you navigate there:

1) The iridescens description : (german) http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/phyllostac ... ai-30.html
2) The vivax description: (german) http://www.bambus-lexikon.de/phyllostac ... hai-3.html

Aside from these two descriptions there are a number of other bamboos listed as Shanghai 3 including forms of dulcis.
Judging from this situation buying a plant labelled Shanghai 3 is a bit like drawing the lottery, especially if it is young and hard to ID and you do not know the original source.

Greetings,

Nicholas

[Mackel in DFW]

I'll go get a look sometime, I haven't visited our S3 specimen in months, and compare it against our dulcis, vivax, and iridescens and get back to ya. It doesn't look like dulcis, as I recall.



MinDFW

[johnw]

I may be imagining this but I thought I read or someone (Steve in France perhaps) told me that S3 looked like an iridescens without any faint striping. Funny my friend in Denmark grows iridescens without striping though he not buy it as Shanghai #3. He may send a piece in Spring.

If Kimmei received three rhizomes of Shanghai #3 would they not have labelled them differently - i.e. S3a S3b S3c or some similar? I think they are quite onto the Chinese labelling horrors.

johnw

[Nicholas]

I may be imagining this but I thought I read or someone told me S3 looked like an iridescens without any faint striping.

If Kimmei received three rhizomes of Shanghai #3 would they not have labelled them differently - i.e. S3a S3b S3c or some similar? I think they are quite onto the Chinese labelling horrors.

johnw

Shanghai 3 was a provisional name given by kimmei


I did some more looking around and found the article: http://www.kimmei.com/dpublicaties.html#e02

greetings,

[johnw]

Judging from this situation buying a plant labelled Shanghai 3 is a bit like drawing the lottery, especially if it is young and hard to ID and you do not know the original source.
Greetings,Nicholas

Nicholas - My mistake, I thought you were saying there were different plants labelled Shanghai 3. So there were three plants imported by Kimmei as Shanghaiwhich were subsequently numbered 1,2 and 3. Were these therefore released before they were numbered and hence the lottery draw?

On the Kimmei site it is difficult to tell when any identifications were made as Jos' writings are not dated; unless they are in order of publication from top down???

johnw

[stevelau1911]

Based on my experience, Dulcis seems to be the superior species of bamboo in my garden. It got up to 15ft tall after 3 years in the ground, starting with a 2ft tall 1/8 inch diameter culm division. It has pretty good hardiness in zone 6 so it can hold leaves through an average winter, but it's not the hardiest species I have. Even with a lot of pampering, it doesn't look like it produces many rhizomes, except the rhizomes it does produce are over 1 inch in diameter, and can get up to 2-3ft in a season at best. It doesn't put on that many culms each year, but it does seem to invest a lot of energy for every culm it puts out.

I did put a serious amount of compost on it this spring so the rhizome growth has been the best it has ever been, and only took off 4 divisions from it early in the year so I expect some serious gains in size and numbers by next spring. The related species that seems to intrigue me is prominens. I like how that species can produce culms that turn halfway black with upright culms that have huge bulges in their nodes.

[Nicholas]

Nicholas - My mistake, I thought you were saying there were different plants labelled Shanghai 3.

On the Kimmei site it is difficult to tell when any identifications were made as Jos' writings are not dated; unless they are in order of publication from top down???

johnw

Yes and no. There are a number of different clones running around being sold as Shanghai 3 but as far as I know Kimmei only has one Shanghai 3.
This is why it starts becoming complicated.
You could have the "real" Shanghai 3 and start judging if it is iridescens or dulcis or something else, or you could have a clone such as the Vivax variant Vaupel also lists as Shanghai 3. The shoots do have similarities so it becomes even more of a problem to hold them apart.

Comparing the experiences with Shanghai 3 from different growers only makes sense if you can ascertain that the plants they have are from the same source. Else you could be comparing apples with pears.

[JD_z7a_NJ]

Thanks Nicholas!

Mackel, how long has your S3 been in the ground? Any photos?

Steve, are you growing P. prominens? How's your parvifolia doing? Mine, from you has done great. Tallest is about 4'-5' long/tall but growing on an angle. Can't wait to see what it does next year.

[stevelau1911]

I don't have prominens, but I am considering adding it to my collection since it sounds like this would be a decent bamboo to grow in zone 6 with decent hardiness and size potential. It's not my biggest priority though since I have plenty of big green and hardy phyllostachys bamboos already.

Parvifolia is up to 14ft with culms averaging around 1 inch for me, but probably won't gain much as I took around 2/3 of it off in divisions in 2012. It has lots of 2-3ft long rhizomes that are popping up and some turning upwards so I might have to start a compost pile right under the grove to make sure it doesn't get fried up.

[Mackel in DFW]

Our S3 has been in the ground for two years, Sir. Don't own a camera, I'm ashamed to admit. But what I suspect is that the tensile strengths will be different amongst dulcis, iridescens, vivax and S3. I'll check for that and node-prominence, as well. This is where I suspect there will be subtle differences amongst the four. I'll try to paint a concise picture of noteable observations in english, learned to do that from my German mother. Of course, she couldn't speak any english at the time. I'm really wanting a camera for Christmas.



MinDFW

[needmore]

I think and I stress think...that mine is the Jos clone. Had it in-ground for 2 or 3 winters and am growing a potted one as well. I can't say what it may be...it seems to be both vivax and dulcis like, my iridescens shoots look dis-similar so I might not see that link with mine. I really am not growing the green form of vivax, it did so poorly here I killed it off a few years back so I am not really in a position to compare it either but I have some pieces of 3 other vivax forms here. Dulcis I've had for several years.

My S3 last spring shot pretty early; it had upsized quite impressively but those early shoots were nabbed by a late freeze and crapped out, the replacements are a nice size but smaller than the lost ones. The shoots looked more like vivax than dulcis but not a dead ringer for either - and I can see some albeit minor resemblance to iridescens, not nearly as red and crinklier blades than mine. Further complicating things is the existence of multiple clones of Dulcis...if I had to bet, I think I'd bet the S3 ends up being a form of Dulcis but I wouldn't bet much...

Here are some photos of mine( dunno why one is duplicated???), in the multi-specie photo the S3 is to the right of the logs a few feet:

[Mackel in DFW]

I am going now to look at S3, but I don't think I could add more than what Brad just said. Sounds about right to me, it might take years to figure out completely- when our S3 hits thirty feet that's paydirt. We have all the giants except moso which has died twice, and ultimately, would like to "live amongst the giants". I'm heading eight miles north and a hundred feet high, what a nutty passtime.



MinDFW

[Mackel in DFW]

First Imprssions in a While:



Ok, our S3 has many more, and thinner shoots at the same stage in life and height, ten feet or so, as dulcis and vivax, and is not quite as erect as iridescens nor as linear as vivax. It's tensile strength is in the middle somewhere but unlike iridescens, which is the very strong one of the four. It's nodes have white rings like the rest, somewhat pronounced. It lacks a huge base at the bottom of the culm like dulcis. Aesthetically at this juvenille state, it's "fuzzier" or not quite as distinct as dulcis, iridescens, or vivax. A thousand words but nary the picture, hope that helps, Bubbas.




MinDFW

[Steve in France]

Only Jos has the true S3 because he named it and still does not know what it is, not from want of trying or knowledge. It just not fit into an easy name, I think it's a cross so will never fit . I suggested this to Jos a couple of years ago and he agreeded it's possible. The key to growing huge S3 fast seems to be Summer heat more so than Parvifolia. It spreads rhizome faster than any Bamboo I've grown. Has a habit of throwing the odd large culm. Produces way more shoots than it can support, Jos figures it's a shoot/food Bamboo and came from a small village in China.Here S3 and Parvifolia grow at about the same speed in terms of culms grown and sustained. Parvifolia produces a more consistant crop of culms .. Having the ideal climate here in Maryland/DC I believe I'm growing these Large Timber Bamboos as fast as they can be pushed .I get no blade/leaf damage here on my Bamboos.
All the Best
Steve
p.s.
I'll post a couple of pics of my three year old Bamboos in a minute
p.p.s The S3 is in the first two pics , you can see how it has a terrace like effect. This branch effect is even better when they first leaf out.
Parvifolia in the third pic has the weeping tip effect. Most of Parvifolia is still growing in the 4 ft by 4 ft box. Most of S3 is in the 4 ft by 8 ft box