Putting layer of manure on grove

[Jerry Hamilton]

I have a grove of henon that has been growing for about 14 yrs. I have never done anything to it until recently, just let it grow. I am cleaning and thinnig it. I will put a layer of manure down and was wondering if I should blow the leave off while I do this and then put them back afterward or just leave them under it? Which would be the best way to do it?

[blokker]

When I put down a layer of manure around my clumping bamboos I prefer to put an additional thin layer of mulch/leaves over the top. It's more work but I reckon it keeps a bit more moisture in the manure layer which has to be good, although I'm sure manure works well on it's own as a mulch.
For me, another reason I do that it keeps the air quality in the neighbourhood a bit better too as the horse manure I use isn't always fully aged!! I've layered more than 60 cubic metres over the last year or so and the results make it well worth the effort.

[ShmuBamboo]

I would use a blower and blow the leaves out before putting the manure down. This is to keep the leaves from forming a layer or mat between the soil and the manure. Or you can do nothing, like I did with a large stand of Golden that I dumped 10 or so tractor buckets of manure into directly from the sheep barn. The bamboo will love it! So will the worms, that will come and dine and drill and areate the soil and leave castings for the bamboo roots to thrive on, after the nitrogen has leached out of the manure and the soil.

[CJW]

I would use a blower and blow the leaves out before putting the manure down. This is to keep the leaves from forming a layer or mat between the soil and the manure. Or you can do nothing, like I did with a large stand of Golden that I dumped 10 or so tractor buckets of manure into directly from the sheep barn. The bamboo will love it! So will the worms, that will come and dine and drill and areate the soil and leave castings for the bamboo roots to thrive on, after the nitrogen has leached out of the manure and the soil.

Good point! Manure works well as well as lawn clippings. Lawn clippings form a sort of green manure over a few months and can really make things WARM! The bamboo will go nuts with the warmth and nitrogen releasing from the grass.

[stevelau1911]

I've found an article about mycorrhizal fungi which is supposed to work in improving the uptake of nutrients of plants by colonizing the roots and also breaking down minerals to make them more easily absorbed. This sounds like a very good experiment to try on bamboos. I have plenty of potted bamboos of the same species to give a thorough test of this stuff. Heres the article http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/amaranthus.html

It becomes a lot of work in layering manure onto bamboo especially when they turn into large groves, and sometimes costly so with something like this, manure might not be needed, or not as often. Maximizing the plant's ability to uptake nutrients may be better than adding loads of it and losing lots of it due to run-off over time.

Does anyone have any experience with or ever heard of this?

http://www.permaearth.org/bamboo.html
Heres the quote in this article that states this fungi does work for bamboo Recent research by the United States Department of Agriculture (6) has indicated that bamboo benefits from innoculation by these organisms at the root level.

[CJW]

[quote="stevelau1911"]I've found an article about mycorrhizal fungi which is supposed to work in improving the uptake of nutrients of plants by colonizing the roots and also breaking down minerals to make them more easily absorbed. This sounds like a very good experiment to try on bamboos. I have plenty of potted bamboos of the same species to give a thorough test of this stuff. Heres the article http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/amaranthus.html

It becomes a lot of work in layering manure onto bamboo especially when they turn into large groves, and sometimes costly so with something like this, manure might not be needed, or not as often. Maximizing the plant's ability to uptake nutrients may be better than adding loads of it and losing lots of it due to run-off over time.

Does anyone have any experience with or ever heard of this?

[quote]http://www.permaearth.org/bamboo.html
Heres the quote in this article that states this fungi does work for bamboo Recent research by the United States Department of Agriculture (6) has indicated that bamboo benefits from innoculation by these organisms at the root level.

Well I have heard of using Soya-beans (after harvesting them of course) and flowing them under in the soil to get nitrogen in the soil. Soya beans have a nitrogen fixing bacteria on their roots.. I tired this. It works to an extent. I had better results with Horse crap and lawn clippings

[Matt in TN]

I had better results with Horse crap and lawn clippings

That's great news - I have a lot of both and have been using them liberally on my bamboo!

[dudley]

1 can regular cola (not diet)
1/2 cup ammonia
1/2 cup liquid dish soap
1/2 cup liquid lawn food
put in a 20 gal hose end sprayer
this will feed the critters that break down your compost and build your soil
spray it on your compost heap and on the mulch around your boo.

[CJW]

1 can regular cola (not diet)
1/2 cup ammonia
1/2 cup liquid dish soap
1/2 cup liquid lawn food
put in a 20 gal hose end sprayer
this will feed the critters that break down your compost and build your soil
spray it on your compost heap and on the mulch around your boo.

I know about the Ammonia giving N2 to the compost but Dish soap? Why? What kind of Dish soap, and what has it got it in it?
Cola has Phosphoric acid H2PO4 and Ammonium Hydroxide (aq) will give you Ammonium DiHydrogen Phosphate which is essentially the base of 20/20/20,
The potassium is from KNO3 btw,

[foxd]

1 can regular cola (not diet)
1/2 cup ammonia
1/2 cup liquid dish soap
1/2 cup liquid lawn food
put in a 20 gal hose end sprayer
this will feed the critters that break down your compost and build your soil
spray it on your compost heap and on the mulch around your boo.

I know about the Ammonia giving N2 to the compost but Dish soap? Why? What kind of Dish soap, and what has it got it in it?
Cola has Phosphoric acid H2PO4 and Ammonium Hydroxide (aq) will give you Ammonium DiHydrogen Phosphate which is essentially the base of 20/20/20,
The potassium is from KNO3 btw,

I think the dish soap has phosphorus in it, but this will change with new regulations going into effect.

[ShmuBamboo]

Feeding microbes is an interesting topic. So is getting a fungal mass in your soil for good productivity of any plant types. However, as with the need for 'seeding' a compost pile with microbe starter and stuff like that, it is really not needed. The microbes are already out there, as is most of what they need to 'eat'. If I chip up a typical compost pile (half yard or larger), it will get good and hot within 2 days, even in the dead of winter*. Composting typically boils down to two basic methods; one is leave it be, and the other is add manure to accelerate the process. It comes down to available nitrogen, really. Other minerals factor in the process, but nitrogen is the key element in microbe and plant growth, as well as livestock grazing. Ruminant animals eat grass and break it down and then feed off of the microbes and what the microbes produce by breaking grass down further, rather than on the grass itself. You can think of them as fermenters with four legs. Once it is dumped as waste from these animals, manure will accelerate the breakdown process of compost due to the high amounts of nitrogen, usually in the form of urine which is mixed with the poop at the source (typically the barnyard). *Note that I live in the west and with the mild winters we get, even huge amounts of compost are gone in about a year. So methods that are popular in the northeast do not really work very well here. However, I believe that the methods that work well here will also work there.

When you fertilize your yard, what really happens is that enzymes and microbes break down the fertilizers into various usable nitrogen forms. Different fertilizers break down differently, depending on the form applied. For example, if you apply urea to your lawn or bamboos, they can take up urea directly if they are active. What is not used by the plant will be broken down by enzymes into ammonia (NH3 and NH4) in about 2 weeks time. Ammonia can also be taken up by plants directly. Some of the ammonia is volatile and will evaporate from the soil into the air. It is also not bound by soil solids and thus is subject to leaching from soils in water. Ammonia in the soil broken down by bacteria (nitrosomonas) to form nitrite (NO2). Nitrites are not available to plants. Nitrites are then broken down by another bacteria (nitrobacter) to form nitrate (NO3). Nitrates can be readily used by plants. The breakdown process is dependant on temperature for the microbes in the soil to be active. Generally bacterial breakdown of nitrogen compounds by bacteria will not occur below 55 degrees F. For this reason you need to apply certain types of fertilizer when it is warm enough for the microbes to break them down. This multi-stage microbe process is a reason that many growers use urea products, because nitrogen will be come available to the plants in several stages over time. I am a big fan of urea based fertilizers, even though I know that there is a lot of anti-urea based sentiment out there in the gardening literature. It all gets broken down into the same inorganic compounds one way or another.

At any rate, manure is a great way to feed your bamboos, and your microbes, and your worms. I do not rototill much, and it is impossible to do that in an established bamboo grove anyway. So I feed the worms that do the microtilling for me. They love the dead plant material in manure, and any decayed and dead plant matter for that matter. Worms are great to aerate the soil, as well as leaving worm castings all over for the plants to suck up. I know when I have a good worm farm going when I see the mole hills forming. They go after the worms and dig even larger holes that aerate the soil even more. Unfortunately here we also have voles, and they will eat bamboo rhizomes. I do not have gophers here, fortunately, as they eat even more rhizome than voles do and they can destroy an established grove in less than a year.

[Matt in TN]

Great and informative post, Shmu! Thanks for taking the time -

I am a big fan of urea based fertilizers, even though I know that there is a lot of anti-urea based sentiment out there in the gardening literature. It all gets broken down into the same inorganic compounds one way or another.

I'm curious to hear more on this, as urea-based fertilizer are what I mostly see around here. I'm veering off topic a little, but we had our pasture soil tested last year and they specifically recommended ammonium-nitrate based nitrogen intead of urea-based as the urea would have 15% (going off memory here) lost.

I understand nothing about either of these, but I would be curious to hear your thoughts on it -

[ShmuBamboo]

Oh, and as for mycorrhizal fungi, something like 92% of plants tested are naturally inocculated with them, either internal to the cells, or outside the cells of roots. Using a starter for that is no more required than for starting a compost pile (unless you are doing tissure or seed culture and are using a sterile growing medium). Basically plants move carbohydrates and sugars to the roots just in order to cultivate the fungus in and around their roots, and in turn the fungi scavanges the soil for nutrients and/or makes them more available to the plant roots. Also mycorrhizal fungi is very expensive stuff in the form of spores. A better approach to getting more in your soil is to feed the fungus that is already there. Sugar and calcium are main ingerdients of several of the 'soil restore' products out there. Supposedly using too much sugar in the spring is not a good idea, as it will cause the nitrogen compounds to break down too fast (too much of a good thing). Some recommend that sugars (plain old table sugar, or sucrose) should be applied in very small amounts, or in higher doses in the fall to 'feed' the fungal mass. Another thing to note though is that using fungicides on plants tend to reduce the mycorrhizal fungi in the roots as well.

This also brings up another interesting topic of discussion about colonizing Mars and the like. One huge example against our being able to colonize Mars are the areas here on Earth that are far far more favorable for growing plants, yet plants do not grow there. For example the polar regions, and the regions above the timberline of mountains. I ski a lot and I am above the timberline a lot. There is air up there, water, nutrients, soil, it is warm in summer months and there is a lot of sunlight, and yet no trees or shrubs grow up there. Reason: microbe limitations. Where the microbes do not grow, the plants do not grow either. Mars is far colder, has the wrong atmosphere, has far less sunlight, and is limited in water. It also has less gravity, and a lighter atmosphere for less pressure. One has to wonder what it would really take to terraform it into a livable planet.

[CJW]

Great and informative post, Shmu! Thanks for taking the time -

I am a big fan of urea based fertilizers, even though I know that there is a lot of anti-urea based sentiment out there in the gardening literature. It all gets broken down into the same inorganic compounds one way or another.

I'm curious to hear more on this, as urea-based fertilizer are what I mostly see around here. I'm veering off topic a little, but we had our pasture soil tested last year and they specifically recommended ammonium-nitrate based nitrogen intead of urea-based as the urea would have 15% (going off memory here) lost.

I understand nothing about either of these, but I would be curious to hear your thoughts on it -

Ha, try getting 34,0,0 now days !! It's like pulling teeth!
Worse is getting Urea Nitrate, most times you can't, even with a license.
You can still get 34,0,0 11S which is what I use. It works fine. It's got Ammonium Sulphate in it.
BTW, 46,0,0 is Urea Carbonate and that is easy to get! It does work well, but it can burn plants easily.

[ShmuBamboo]

Great and informative post, Shmu! Thanks for taking the time -

I am a big fan of urea based fertilizers, even though I know that there is a lot of anti-urea based sentiment out there in the gardening literature. It all gets broken down into the same inorganic compounds one way or another.

I'm curious to hear more on this, as urea-based fertilizer are what I mostly see around here. I'm veering off topic a little, but we had our pasture soil tested last year and they specifically recommended ammonium-nitrate based nitrogen intead of urea-based as the urea would have 15% (going off memory here) lost.

I understand nothing about either of these, but I would be curious to hear your thoughts on it -

Amusing. Urea is a lot higher in N than ammomium-nitrate (AN), more than 15% to cover for any losses. I assune that they are talking about ammonia volitility, or that being wafted off into the air. Urea turns into ammonia pretty fast by enzyme activity. It is temperature dependant though, and also dependant on soil pH. In cooler soils and lower pH soils, the ammonia will be more stable and less volitile. I assume that your soils are higher in pH, so they are recommending AN. For this reason it is recommended to get the urea into the soil as fast as possible (till or mix with water application) if the pH is higher than 7.5. I mix and apply my urea with water, so that is not an issue. In pasture fertilizer applications, the fertilizer is typically broadcast in chrystal form, and lays on the surface longer before it is drawn into the soil. That is probably why they are recommending AN over urea in your case. AN is also highly soluble in water and subject to rapid leaching though. Note also that Ammonium Nitrate is used in making bombs, like the one used in Oklahoma City. For that reason it can be very hard to get.

We used urea on our pastures, and one year we used ammonium-nitrate becasue it was so cheap. I did not notice any difference. Urea is so cheap that I do not care about losses on my bamboos, and I feed on the heavy side. In pasture management that is a bigger issue though, as you want the biggest bang for the smallest dollar. Uera has the highest amount of nitrogen compared to other fertilizers though.

Some typical high (and not so high) nitrogen fertilizer formulas:

Urea (46-0-0)
Ammonium nitrate (34-0-0)
Ammonium sulphate (21-0-0)
Miricle Grow acid loving plant formula (30-10-10)
Urine (12-1-3)
Blood meal (11-0-0)
Fish emulsion (5-1-1)
Chicken manure (varies: 3-2-1 to 6-4-3)
Sheep manure (1.4-0.5-1.2)
Steer manure (0.6-0.2-0.5)
Horse manure is (0.7-0.3-0.6)

My brother swears by fish emulsion, but I do not use it. It is really expensive, and it tends to attract animals that dig around the garden looking for the fish (like cats and racoons). Dog and cat manures are not recommended, as they have pathogens and diseases that are contagious to humans. The best manures are from ruminant animals like cattle and sheep that will not have pathogens or diseases that humans can acquire. Basically what they pass is mainly digested plant material. Milorganite is processed human manure. I avoid it as some football players reported problems playing on terf fed with Milorganite. Human urine is considered safe for use, as 99% of any pathogens will be killed within 24 hours of passing. It should be diluted at least 10:1 with water before using though. My experiments with pig manure were rather dissapointing. It can be very dense, and the dogs seem to think that dried pig manure is a delicacy worth digging up and eating. Dogs have no shame or pride. Sheep manure was the best overall, and farily high in nitrogen. Horse manure is OK, but tends to clump. I use a lot of steer manure in my soil mixes, mainly becasue it is usually cheap and the worms love it. Chicken manure is good fertilizer, but it can smell bad and I am not sure about breathing the dust from that stuff. Someone had to clean out the chicken coop though, and I had a grove of bamboo next to it, so (shovel flinging) onto the bamboo it went. No complaints from those boos.