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 Post subject: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:35 am 
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Location: Poulsbo, WA
Is there anyone here that has propagated black bamboo by tissue culture? Any success?
Bob Jackson

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:22 pm
Posts: 122
Location: Friendswood, TX
I don't know, but my tissue culture oldhamii still looks like an immature plant after being in ground for over two years. The new shoots don't really size up at all.


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 Post subject: Juvenile B. oldhamii
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:17 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:55 pm
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Location: Poulsbo, WA
You say:
Arachnotron wrote:
I don't know, but my tissue culture oldhamii still looks like an immature plant after being in ground for over two years. The new shoots don't really size up at all.


It doesn't sound like you have a Tissue Culture problem or question, but a regular cultivation problem. When a TC plant leaves the TC environment and goes out into the normal world of dirt and weather, it has to grow up and pass through the same growing processes that other small bamboos face. Yours just got stuck there. And you don't know how to get it out.

I can't help you because I don't have any experience with Bambusa oldhamii and other tropicals. I wouldn't normally recommend taking any bamboo that was still in a juvenile stage. Leave that to someone with more experience.

Why don't you contact the person you bought it from and ask for their help? Or find someone that knows B. oldhamii well? You don't need any TC advice. Sorry I can't help.


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 Post subject: Re: Juvenile B. oldhamii
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:47 pm 
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Location: Kerby, OR Location Details
sunkejie wrote:
You say:
Arachnotron wrote:
I don't know, but my tissue culture oldhamii still looks like an immature plant after being in ground for over two years. The new shoots don't really size up at all.


It doesn't sound like you have a Tissue Culture problem or question, but a regular cultivation problem. When a TC plant leaves the TC environment and goes out into the normal world of dirt and weather, it has to grow up and pass through the same growing processes that other small bamboos face. Yours just got stuck there. And you don't know how to get it out.

I can't help you because I don't have any experience with Bambusa oldhamii and other tropicals. I wouldn't normally recommend taking any bamboo that was still in a juvenile stage. Leave that to someone with more experience.

Why don't you contact the person you bought it from and ask for their help? Or find someone that knows B. oldhamii well? You don't need any TC advice. Sorry I can't help.


Many growers have noticed that tissue culture plants perform poorly when compared to same size (ie, 1 gal) divided plants. Given the experience of some of these growers, I would say that it is possible to get a TC plant that is underperforming.


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
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Location: Zone 5 in WA State Location Details
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sunkejie wrote:
Is there anyone here that has propagated black bamboo by tissue culture? Any success?
Bob Jackson


You can bid on one in the auction. :D
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
Not to open pandora's box again on tissue culture. Yes, it's quite possible that the TC plant you have is an "under performer." I've grown several hundred TC Fargesia the last five years and there is variation among the same batches of plants. Eventually the "under performers" catch up to the others but it can take several more seasons and to be very honest some of those may not ever size up. They get stuck in juvenile (seedling) stage and go nowhere. It is uncommon in my experience. My advice to customers who have a concern is to purchase large TC plants (#5 container and up) with nice thick culms emerging in the spring.

On my web site, Fargesia sp. Scabrida - Asian Wonder 'Silver Dragon' is a variegated variation discovered in a batch of several hundred TC plants last year. It has beautiful white striping on the leaves and culm leaves of new shoots. Fortunately the variation stayed after division and I'll plant it out this spring to watch how the plant performs compared to the very full 12ft tall "normal" TC plant I purchased in 2005.

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Location: Esparto, CA
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In your part of the US one can source large TC Fargesia but in many -if not most - parts you can not. Suppliers also do not like to ship the large ones so what many of us have access to are the 1-2 gallon TC plants via mail order or the mainstream nurseries. I think that F rufa has shown good growth on the TC plants but nothing else I've tried does and at this point I avoid them - particularly the Phyllostachys. Is anyone aware of ANY photos anywhere of TC Phyllostachys or Bambusa that have sized up?

Until there is some good evidence of the different TC species sizing up normally I think the industry needs to rethink its marketing and perhaps limit products to proven winners like F rufa (dracocephala). Even though they are able to mass produce plants via TC which in theory drives prices down, the prices are not coming down so what is the end consumer getting?

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Location: St. Louis area Location Details
Does Boo-Shoot sell only TC plants? Locally, Boo-Shoot plants are almost all I see at nurseries, except for some Yellow Groove and Nigra which were not from Boo-Shoot, and some Rufa.

My Phy. bissetii from Boo-Shoot seems to be sizing up normally, but I don't have anything to compare it to. This is a very vigorous plant. Is it TC? Don't know.

I got a Boo-Shoot F. denudata this year, and yesterday I noticed that its leaves are already crispy. I don't have another denudata to compare to (yet). The smaller F. murielae (also Boo-Shoot) next to it is fine. I tarped over them both yesterday -- better late than never?

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
needmore wrote:
In your part of the US one can source large TC Fargesia but in many -if not most - parts you can not. Suppliers also do not like to ship the large ones so what many of us have access to are the 1-2 gallon TC plants via mail order or the mainstream nurseries. I think that F rufa has shown good growth on the TC plants but nothing else I've tried does and at this point I avoid them - particularly the Phyllostachys. Is anyone aware of ANY photos anywhere of TC Phyllostachys or Bambusa that have sized up?

Until there is some good evidence of the different TC species sizing up normally I think the industry needs to rethink its marketing and perhaps limit products to proven winners like F rufa (dracocephala). Even though they are able to mass produce plants via TC which in theory drives prices down, the prices are not coming down so what is the end consumer getting?


Brad, my experience with Phyllostachys TC has been nothing but disappointing. It was the first batch of nigra TC in 2004. Personally I'd never buy a Phyllostachys TC again based on the five plants I grew for three seasons. With that said I think my advice on always purchasing the largest plant possible is still applicable. Folks here in the NW (west of the Cascades) have fantastic growing conditions and we're the first to recognize when something is not performing "normally". None of us (even Bamboo Garden) have any TC plants that have matured. We've only been growing them since 2004/2005 and it'll be another 5 or 6 years before we really know the final truth with how they compare to non-TC plants. Based on that when you buy TC it is a roll of the dice and that's the reality.

It's true that retail cost has held steady and my only explanation is that it's market driven. People are willing to pay the price. Normally it takes several years for a new introduced bamboo specie to become affordable enough for the average person. Sometimes the cost never comes down. TC right out of the gate has been affordable with of course exceptions (again market driven.) Each nursery has to decide for themselves what they charge given the market conditions for that area. We look at each other's price sheets on the web, visit competing nurseries, scan what's available on Craigslist and decide what we can sell it for or not sell it for. It's strictly a business decision and not a crime.

Thankfully I'm a niche' player in my local market. I can't come close to competing with Bamboo Garden.

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Cedar Mill Bamboo
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100% Organic Garden and Nursery in Portland, Oregon


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
Alan_L wrote:
Does Boo-Shoot sell only TC plants? Locally, Boo-Shoot plants are almost all I see at nurseries, except for some Yellow Groove and Nigra which were not from Boo-Shoot, and some Rufa.

My Phy. bissetii from Boo-Shoot seems to be sizing up normally, but I don't have anything to compare it to. This is a very vigorous plant. Is it TC? Don't know.

I got a Boo-Shoot F. denudata this year, and yesterday I noticed that its leaves are already crispy. I don't have another denudata to compare to (yet). The smaller F. murielae (also Boo-Shoot) next to it is fine. I tarped over them both yesterday -- better late than never?


Boo Shoots sells both division and TC plants. They don't tell you on the label which is which so there's no way to tell unless you asked them specifically. I think even then they may not not know themselves or be willing to give out that information.

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Cedar Mill Bamboo
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100% Organic Garden and Nursery in Portland, Oregon


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:11 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 93
Location: Shelton, WA
Adam, it's been a long time since I bought a non-TC plant from Boo-Shoot, but last I did, they were very open about the propagation method. Also, it's pretty easy to tell when up potting one gallon plants (Phyllostachys) because the old rhizome is easily spotted in the root ball. I have had really good growth from TC plants of Fargesia 'Rufa', F. scabrida, F. robusta, and F. denudata, however, I am concerned about the hardiness of my one gallon F. denudata. I don't know if it's a TC thing or just a general tenderness normal for small plants, but I lost forty, #1 gallons last winter in an unheated cold frame. The remainder I up potted into #3's this summer, and they survived the 10 degree F. November cold we just had, so we will see come spring.

As to pricing, Brad, I would say that high shipping costs and price-setting at the retail level are the culprits, because prices for TC clumpers on the wholesale level (at least locally) are quite a bit lower than they were say, in 2004-2005. In some cases the decrease is very modest, in other cases it's dramatic. Of course, it varies from grower to grower as well. I'm planning a visit out your way beginning of Feb. Hopefully, we can get together and solve the bamboo pricing conundrum!

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Location: Esparto, CA
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philinshelton wrote:
As to pricing, Brad, I would say that high shipping costs and price-setting at the retail level are the culprits, because prices for TC clumpers on the wholesale level (at least locally) are quite a bit lower than they were say, in 2004-2005. In some cases the decrease is very modest, in other cases it's dramatic. Of course, it varies from grower to grower as well. I'm planning a visit out your way beginning of Feb. Hopefully, we can get together and solve the bamboo pricing conundrum!


It seems though that prices at the retail level -pre-shipping- for TC plants are the same as traditional propagation when both options exist, so the end consumer has not gained any $$ advantage from the entry of TC into the market. With no cost advantage I see no reason to purchase them if there are other options.

It would be great to see you in Feb but, cripes man, come at least once a bit later in the year! Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to travel when work is slow, I know! If we can stay above 0F between now & then you'll be surprised at how much size up I've had since you were here. If not, then I can always embellish the details!

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Brad Salmon, zone 9 Esparto, CA


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
Tissue cultured bamboo by shear volume should cost less than division, no question about it! It really is market driven and as long as people are willing to pay the same price as division I don't see it changing. Collectors who are aware of the difference are very few and far between and honestly I don't know a nursery business or garden store out there that'll willingly lower the cost if they can get a higher markup.

We have a popular local business in town (two large locations) called Portland Nursery that charges an unbelievable amount of money for containerized bamboo and they get it. It's typically double or triple what Ned and I charge for the same container size and specie. It goes to show you that plants in general and specifically bamboo are an emotional purchase and not a very logical one......... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:26 am 
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Posts: 761
Location: plus 700ft in the Santa Cruz Mtns, 8 miles from the Pacific 35 miles S. of San Jose
I only have one species of TC - F. robusta. Got 5 plants in a trade. They seem strange to me - constantly shooting weak culms. They have not shown to be hardy when divided. All this in pots - nothing put in-ground. I'll know more when they have a one year cycle.
PNW seems knee deep in bamboo. A mix of people selling it on Craigslist (like me) to large nurseries. Lots of small guys selling bamboo as a side business. Trading is also a good option. Locally - seems to be a push not to sell runners. Easy to find good 5 gal plants in 25 buck range. I sell the same size a few times a year for 5 to 10 bucks. Some folks abusing ship cost to make up for plant cost. RGds


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 Post subject: Re: TC of black bamboo
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:47 am 
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Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Location Details
Here it's normal for Green Screen (aka Fargesia robusta TC) in containers to shoot smaller weaker culms all summer long into late autumn. It adds to the bushiness of the plant quite well. The taller thicker culms shoot in March. Once in the ground they generally don't do it after the first season at least at my place. Fargesia sp. Scabrida - Asian Wonder and Fargesia rufa - Green Panda pretty much do the same thing in various degrees. Again the tallest thickest culms are in early March. They must like your potting soil, fertilizing and irrigation schedule Fred!

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