Need Brainstorm on 100+ acre rhizome border management

[sfrangu]

Thanks, foxd!

[stevelau1911]

Not yet. 16 foot tall moso may be a first in Indiana, unless Brad has beaten me to it.

Too bad, but it looks like he may have it over 20ft given this one never got destroyed by the wind while shooting. I have a specimen of this and do see that it doesn't appear to be a very vigorous cultivator of moso, but if he's getting this kind of size then the hardiness, or ability to bounce back must not be too bad eh.
http://www.bambooweb.info/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6284

[Leo S]

Back to the OT, Border Management.

I think you must use a 2 or 3 step defense. My thoughts echo the others.

1.) 20 to 30 foot swath of mowed lawn is an excellent, but not fool proof barrier. If the person mowing also has a sprayer on board with herbicide, stops and paints freshly mowed culm stubs with herbicide as he/she mows, you will probably have near 100% control. Works pretty well for my Bro-In-Law's much smaller plantings.

2.) the plow/trencher is also viable.

3.) compacted gravel road is an excellent barrier if the road gets enough traffic to stay compacted.

Use a combination of techniques, use your property's geography to choose which combo for which location, but as the second line of defense, I feel herbicides are the best back up for killing the rhizomes that escape the first line of defense. I know most of us prefer to 'go organic' and avoid the chemicals. BUT you are talking large scale operation, you can't afford to fool around, and if labor costs and time are a significant factor, herbicides really are your best alternative as the SECOND or third line of defense. PRIMARY, will be the mowed barrier, the ditch barrier, the compacted road barrier, perhaps the HDPE plastic barrier along an area where the others are not best.

Make a 3 stage defense, document it so the employees know what it is, (post it on the wall in the break room?) Maybe even make a map, with the plans, to show where to use which techniques.

No one technique will be complete. The last line of defense is hiring strong backs, with shovels and pruners and digging out rhizomes that escape defenses 1 and 2.

[terrabamboo]

Back to the OT, Border Management.

1.) 20 to 30 foot swath of mowed lawn is an excellent, but not fool proof barrier. If the person mowing also has a sprayer on board with herbicide, stops and paints freshly mowed culm stubs with herbicide as he/she mows, you will probably have near 100% control. Works pretty well for my Bro-In-Law's much smaller plantings.

Leo,

Great post. Will roundup actually penetrate the bamboo rhizome network/system if you spray the culm cutting with roundup? I was under the impression it needs to be on the leaves for roundup to be effective and the actual culm is fairly resistant to it (just like bark on a pine tree).

[stevelau1911]

Wouldn't this stop all the rhizomes right in their tracks?

12-18 inches of depth sounds like it will take out all the rhizomes that come across the border.

http://www.groundhoginc.com/productview ... roductID=7

[Leo S]

I have to check with the Bro-In-Law, but Round Up is one of the several herbicides he uses. Yes, it 'mostly works' he re-applies if it doesn't work the first time. He also alternates, his employment gives him access to several different brands of herbicides, which ever one is left over from one project or another is what goes home with him. The link provided in this thread mentions one of the other herbicides I've seen him use. Herbicides are not a 'magic bullet', you need to use them at 'stump killer' concentrations too. Use them too dilute, and you won't kill anything but the Fescue. The herbicide thread rings true, re-application may be necessary. (and always follow recommended safety precautions)

* Steve
That trench digger looks great, but I can't imagine dragging that around the perimeter of a 100 acre plot. It would take me months to make the circuit. But a version of that behind a tractor could work well.

[needmore]

Have to say that the herbicide option is distressing for me to read about and not effective as I understand it, visited someone who had been trying it for years and it had merely slowed it down some while causing interesting leaf mutations. I took some divisions from his ineffectively herbicide controlled area. I also think it is not needed as other more environmentally friendly options would work better as previously suggested. It seems impossible to imagine that perimeter trenching and mowing 20-30' is not perfectly adequate.

[Alan_L]

That trench digger looks great, but I can't imagine dragging that around the perimeter of a 100 acre plot. It would take me months to make the circuit. But a version of that behind a tractor could work well.

Somebody on the forum posted a photo of a big "hook" that they drag behind the tractor to use as a rhizome pruner. Was that Matt? Or David?

[terrabamboo]

That trench digger looks great, but I can't imagine dragging that around the perimeter of a 100 acre plot. It would take me months to make the circuit. But a version of that behind a tractor could work well.

Somebody on the forum posted a photo of a big "hook" that they drag behind the tractor to use as a rhizome pruner. Was that Matt? Or David?

I use this to run my irrigation. I was thinking of doing that around the perimeter in lieu of a dozer/trencher as a cheaper method.

[zxylene]

i agree with brad about the herbicide in my opinion that should always be the last resort or for me not an option at all i care too much about my water , the stream, fish, my kids not to mention the clover , moss and dandelions i have planted around my bamboo. you cant make good dandelion wine with herbicide all over the place

[Iowaboo]

That trench digger looks great, but I can't imagine dragging that around the perimeter of a 100 acre plot. It would take me months to make the circuit. But a version of that behind a tractor could work well.

Somebody on the forum posted a photo of a big "hook" that they drag behind the tractor to use as a rhizome pruner. Was that Matt? Or David?

http://www.bambooweb.info/bb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4849

[Leo S]

I just re-read this thread, I meant to say that when using an herbicide, it works when used at 'stump killer' strength, and is painted or sprayed on the ENDS OF CUT OFF CULMS. This allows it to penetrate. Otherwise it often doesn't get past the waxy outer coating of the bamboo. I prefer painting it on, less overspray.

I agree with others, in that herbicides should not be your first line of control. Use it when other methods fail. As the condition of my spine deteriorates, digging is a less and less viable option for me and chemical treatments become more enticing.

Roundup has a fairly short half life, if you have to use a herbicide, it is not the worst thing to use.

Yes, I have seen the congested and distorted foliage caused by herbicides. Its not the preferred method, but with the high cost of labor, sometimes it is the better option.

Again, Brad is right, rhizome barrier, expanse of mowed lawns, and trenches, any combination of 2 of these 3 should be nearly 100% control, but when these combinations of control fail, herbicides are an additional tool, in case of failure of the others.

[terrabamboo]

I just re-read this thread, I meant to say that when using an herbicide, it works when used at 'stump killer' strength, and is painted or sprayed on the ENDS OF CUT OFF CULMS. This allows it to penetrate. Otherwise it often doesn't get past the waxy outer coating of the bamboo. I prefer painting it on, less overspray.

I agree with others, in that herbicides should not be your first line of control. Use it when other methods fail. As the condition of my spine deteriorates, digging is a less and less viable option for me and chemical treatments become more enticing.

Roundup has a fairly short half life, if you have to use a herbicide, it is not the worst thing to use.

Yes, I have seen the congested and distorted foliage caused by herbicides. Its not the preferred method, but with the high cost of labor, sometimes it is the better option.

Again, Brad is right, rhizome barrier, expanse of mowed lawns, and trenches, any combination of 2 of these 3 should be nearly 100% control, but when these combinations of control fail, herbicides are an additional tool, in case of failure of the others.

Leo,
Why not paint it on the rhizomes after you cut them in October?

[Nicholas]

Roundup has a fairly short half life, if you have to use a herbicide, it is not the worst thing to use.

In my oppinion one should avoid Glyphosate and, for that matter, herbicides in general.
If I recall correctly it was found that Glyphosate has a negative long-term effect on soil fertility, locking up nutrients.


Now if one does go for the Round-up option I've heard that cutting the culm just below a node gives you a nice hollow area to directly pour in the herbicide....

[Leo S]

Roundup has a fairly short half life, if you have to use a herbicide, it is not the worst thing to use.

In my oppinion one should avoid Glyphosate and, for that matter, herbicides in general.
If I recall correctly it was found that Glyphosate has a negative long-term effect on soil fertility, locking up nutrients.
Now if one does go for the Round-up option I've heard that cutting the culm just below a node gives you a nice hollow area to directly pour in the herbicide....

I want repeat, my view is herbicides should be a last option, avoided if possible. That said, herbicides can be used effectively, and relatively safely. It is an option, that should be remembered, but only used when other options fail. We each have our unique situations. My Bro-In-Law would not allow bamboo to be planted in the ground, until after he was convinced it could be killed with herbicides. My Bro-In-Law had seen out of control, poorly contained plantings of bamboo in the past, which was why he insisted on having options beyond just digging wandering rhizomes out by hand.

He only uses herbicides as a last line of containment. I see him with the shovel, digging the occasional out of bound rhizome on a regular basis. BUT, when the barriers aren't complete enough, when the compacted gravel drive doesn't get enough traffic to keep it compacted, when a rhizome crosses a 30 or 50 foot wide swath of mowed lawn, having the ability to use an herbicide was the tool that gave him peace of mind. He and I both have had shoots come up in nooks and crannies that were near impossible to get a spade into to dig it out, especially around the house. But because I helped him lay out a multi-step containment plan, my sister has 6 beds of bamboo with 7 different species. Oldest of these beds are going on 15 years old. There have been the occasional containment failures, but with the full spectrum of control and removal options, the herbicides get used rarely. That is the way it is supposed to be.

The number one containment option in case of barrier failure is my now 19 year old nephew with a spade in his hand. This is 99% of the secondary containment.

There are barriers around all the beds. HDPE barriers are used for most of the beds, though because of rocky, stony soil, it was not possible to get it as deep as recommended, literally had to cut it off, because at some points soil was too thin to bury the barrier as a continuous piece. So there are gaps in the barrier. For some one side of the barrier is the gravel drive. For the moso there is a 30 to 50 foot swath of mowed lawn. (off topic aside) Amazingly the moso has not made any noticeable effort to escape. The planting has expanded in diameter each year, but it has been by relatively small distances, no more than a foot in any given year. It is 12 years from a 2 gallon nursery can and the largest culm it has is about 6 feet and 1/2 inch in diameter. Disappointing really, and it is in zone 6b or 7a depending on how you squint when look at the map. The next decade of global warming will bring them solidly into zone 7a and the moso should take off.

I just recently read about the nutritional effects of glyphosate, and that is giving me some pause, it really plays into the food crops. Corn and beans and wheat, all GMO "Roundup Ready" crops may be nutritionally compromised by the regular industrial farm use of Roundup. It is a serious issue. I think I will just have to pay the price an only eat organically grown, non GMO food. This will likely triple the food budget and cut into my discretionary spending for bamboo. On the scale of an individual home planting, occasional, infrequent herbicide use is not a big deal.

We did have a dozen rhizomes and culms of P.nigra escape into the rocky soil on a slope leading up to the swimming pool. It was impossible to dig here. It is only a liner type swimming pool, not a concrete swimming pool. The rhizomes could easily puncture the pool liner. Here, and only here we used herbicide on the cut culm stumps. We did get some congested foliage on a culms leading back into the main planting. Just cut those out. The next year new culms were all normal. We did have to apply twice in one growing season, about a month apart for maybe 10% of the culms. So the kill was bout 90% on the first pass. Just like the article in the thread said, control is only effective with repeated applications. We did use the herbicide at label directed "stump Killer" strength, the strongest labelled dose. The planting is now under control, all culms are now where they are supposed to be.