Phyllostachys confusion
Moderator: needmore
-
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:14 am
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: usa
Phyllostachys confusion
Hello, hope you can help. I manage a bamboo collection at a botanic garden and feel that 2 species of Phyllostachys are no longer alive in the collection. ID ref books have not provided the verification I need.
Here it is:
1) Can P. viridis and P. makinoi be easily confused when I.D.ing? If so, what is a reliable morph feature that distinguishes them apart. I know about the "pigskin" surface of P. viridis and the blue-white powder on new culms for P. makinoi. Anything else?
2) Is P. bambusoides distinctly identifiable from P. atrovaginata in mature culms? Also, is it plainly distinct from both of the above mentioned plants as well?
Thank you for any help you can offer.
Here it is:
1) Can P. viridis and P. makinoi be easily confused when I.D.ing? If so, what is a reliable morph feature that distinguishes them apart. I know about the "pigskin" surface of P. viridis and the blue-white powder on new culms for P. makinoi. Anything else?
2) Is P. bambusoides distinctly identifiable from P. atrovaginata in mature culms? Also, is it plainly distinct from both of the above mentioned plants as well?
Thank you for any help you can offer.
- needmore
- Posts: 5008
- Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:14 pm
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: Kea'au, HI
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
I think that 1) is tougher than 2). Viridis may have a white ring at the node that Makinoi does not, I know Viridis does, not sure about the makinoi. Also in some places Viridis will have yellow leaves in late summer, Makionoi less so.
Atrovaginata should be easy to distinguish. Shorter internodes, smaller leaves, a distinct profile, somehow triangular to my eye in how it looks from top to bottom.
Atrovaginata should be easy to distinguish. Shorter internodes, smaller leaves, a distinct profile, somehow triangular to my eye in how it looks from top to bottom.
Brad Salmon, zone 12B Kea'au, HI
http://www.needmorebamboo.com
http://www.needmorebamboo.com
-
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:14 am
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: usa
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Thanks very much for the reply, Needmore.
I'll take a close look for the white ring on the culms.
P. viridis and P. bambusoides are the two I feel are no longer alive. When atrovaginata sends up it's new shoots, they are easy to identify and I know what you mean about the triangular habit of it too. Just not sure what sets mature culms of bambusoides apart from the rest (not just compared with atrovaginata). It could be that I missed some new bambusoides shoots this spring and perhaps there are still some older culms standing.
Is there a field guide for bamboo that focuses on the shoots for ID purposes? Have read that is the most reliable way to make an accurate ID.
I'll take a close look for the white ring on the culms.
P. viridis and P. bambusoides are the two I feel are no longer alive. When atrovaginata sends up it's new shoots, they are easy to identify and I know what you mean about the triangular habit of it too. Just not sure what sets mature culms of bambusoides apart from the rest (not just compared with atrovaginata). It could be that I missed some new bambusoides shoots this spring and perhaps there are still some older culms standing.
Is there a field guide for bamboo that focuses on the shoots for ID purposes? Have read that is the most reliable way to make an accurate ID.
-
- Posts: 1617
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:28 pm
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: EBS - Germany
- Location: HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Victor - You might try the photo section on this site, go to the top bar and search for the species in question in the drop-down menu; lots of new shoots are shown but remember they vary greatly from juvenility to maturity making it difficult for all but those who have watched their plants closely- i.e. Brad et al. The book A Compendium of Chinese Bamboo is excellent for the photos and id-ing.
johnw
johnw
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
-
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:14 am
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: usa
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Thanks johnw.
I'll have our library order a copy. Aside from new shoot growth and flowers, how else can we nail down a species? And I thought the non-bamboo grasses were damn difficult to ID!!!
I'll have our library order a copy. Aside from new shoot growth and flowers, how else can we nail down a species? And I thought the non-bamboo grasses were damn difficult to ID!!!
-
- Posts: 1617
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:28 pm
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: EBS - Germany
- Location: HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Victor - I got a copy from ABE Books for $75.00. The seller was Smith Family Bookstore which I think was in Oregon. A good buy thanks to a tip from Bill Hollenbeck on the Forum.
john
john
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
-
- Posts: 885
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:26 pm
- Location info: 0
- Location: plus 700ft in the Santa Cruz Mtns, 8 miles from the Pacific
35 miles S. of San Jose
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Got the greatest photo gallery in the world by species, Crazy to send people to other locations. THe ability to view photos by species and compare them on this site is incredible. THe fact that this site goes down hill is the lack of people in control of it, who don't understand what a great source it provides, and how to utilize it, and just tries to meet the needs of a narrow base of bamboo growers.
What a shame. Easy for me to say who does not volunteer,, but also sorry for me to say as a member of long standing who has tried to grow numbers and knowledge over several years.
What a shame. Easy for me to say who does not volunteer,, but also sorry for me to say as a member of long standing who has tried to grow numbers and knowledge over several years.
-
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:35 pm
- Location info: 0
- Location: Around here someplace
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Phy. viridis is rather easy to ID. It has a pigskin culm texture that few other bamboos have. I have both viridis and the chimera, Robert Young. The rest of these boos have smooth culms. Phy. makinoi has a lot of blue bloom on the newer culms for several months, whereas Phy. viridis does not. Robert young starts out green and turns yellow leaving the green stripes at the base of the culms, and viridis starts out green and stays green (no blue bloom on any of mine here). Phy. viridis shoots rather late for me here. Phy. viridis does not get as tall as Phy. Makinoi does.
Phy. atrovaginata is also far more cold hardy than Phy. bambusoides. My Phy. atro went down to 7 degrees last year and did not even flinch. Phy. bam. gets killed off here at that temp. Phy. bam. grows a lot larger than Phy. atro does. In summer here Phy. bam. will yellow a lot, whereas Phy. atro stays green for me. Phy. bam. also looses a lot of leaves here in winter and looks ratty until summer. Sometimes atro has an incense smell to it, and it is commonly called incense bamboo. I do not get much of that smell with mine though. I have a large stand of it here. Phy. atro. has very cool looking shoots that are distinctive. The leaf sheaths overlap in a pattern that is unique to Phy. atro. Do a Google search on Phy. atrovaginata and you will see a lot of photos showing the pattern.
Phy. atrovaginata is also far more cold hardy than Phy. bambusoides. My Phy. atro went down to 7 degrees last year and did not even flinch. Phy. bam. gets killed off here at that temp. Phy. bam. grows a lot larger than Phy. atro does. In summer here Phy. bam. will yellow a lot, whereas Phy. atro stays green for me. Phy. bam. also looses a lot of leaves here in winter and looks ratty until summer. Sometimes atro has an incense smell to it, and it is commonly called incense bamboo. I do not get much of that smell with mine though. I have a large stand of it here. Phy. atro. has very cool looking shoots that are distinctive. The leaf sheaths overlap in a pattern that is unique to Phy. atro. Do a Google search on Phy. atrovaginata and you will see a lot of photos showing the pattern.
Happy trails...
-
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:14 am
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: usa
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Thanks ShmuBamboo,
I am now ready to say with confidence that P. viridis and P. bambusoides no longer exist in the collection. Especially with the cold hardiness issue of P. bam. Have used hand lens and scratched culm surfaces, but have never noticed anything I would describe as "pigskin" or pronounced dimpling. Had no problem id-ing the P. atro this spring-definitely my favorite looking shoots. Even managed to save most from rabbits and squirrels this year!
I appreciate every ones input on this.
I am now ready to say with confidence that P. viridis and P. bambusoides no longer exist in the collection. Especially with the cold hardiness issue of P. bam. Have used hand lens and scratched culm surfaces, but have never noticed anything I would describe as "pigskin" or pronounced dimpling. Had no problem id-ing the P. atro this spring-definitely my favorite looking shoots. Even managed to save most from rabbits and squirrels this year!
I appreciate every ones input on this.
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Victor -- would you mind saying which botanic garden this is? I know I'm curious.
Alan.
My blog: It's not work, it's gardening!
My blog: It's not work, it's gardening!
-
- Posts: 707
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:35 pm
- Location info: 0
- Location: Around here someplace
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
Phy. viridis has a interesting and unmistakable texture to it, and for that reason I keep my type form as well as Robert Young clone (its chimera that it reverted from) here. My Phy. bambusoides died long ago in a 12 deg. low winter. I also sold off all of my other Phy. bam. species last year, including Castillon. I had a type of Castillon that was much more cold hardy, but it still looked ratty most of the year.
As for rabbits, I have had a big problem with them here this year. They have been eating the small bamboo shoots and lower leaves. Of late they have also been chewing off smaller culms and eating the leaves after the culms fall over (like beavers). So I am making rabbit pens with deer fence material that are 2 feet tall and corralling my smaller potted bamboos into them to keep them from being eaten. My cat also hunts rabbits, and until this year I would not let him eat them and let the go. No longer. He can now dine all he wants on the cottontails here with my blessing. He already hunted out all the smaller squirrels and two species of surface voles. The deeper tunneling Oregon voles keep coming back though, along with the moles and shrews.
As for rabbits, I have had a big problem with them here this year. They have been eating the small bamboo shoots and lower leaves. Of late they have also been chewing off smaller culms and eating the leaves after the culms fall over (like beavers). So I am making rabbit pens with deer fence material that are 2 feet tall and corralling my smaller potted bamboos into them to keep them from being eaten. My cat also hunts rabbits, and until this year I would not let him eat them and let the go. No longer. He can now dine all he wants on the cottontails here with my blessing. He already hunted out all the smaller squirrels and two species of surface voles. The deeper tunneling Oregon voles keep coming back though, along with the moles and shrews.
Happy trails...
-
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:38 am
- Location info: 0
- Bamboo Society Membership: ABS - America
- Location: Emmett Idaho
Re: Phyllostachys confusion
ShmuBamboo wrote:Phy. viridis has a interesting and unmistakable texture to it, and for that reason I keep my type form as well as Robert Young clone (its chimera that it reverted from) here. My Phy. bambusoides died long ago in a 12 deg. low winter. I also sold off all of my other Phy. bam. species last year, including Castillon. I had a type of Castillon that was much more cold hardy, but it still looked ratty most of the year.
As for rabbits, I have had a big problem with them here this year. They have been eating the small bamboo shoots and lower leaves. Of late they have also been chewing off smaller culms and eating the leaves after the culms fall over (like beavers). So I am making rabbit pens with deer fence material that are 2 feet tall and corralling my smaller potted bamboos into them to keep them from being eaten. My cat also hunts rabbits, and until this year I would not let him eat them and let the go. No longer. He can now dine all he wants on the cottontails here with my blessing. He already hunted out all the smaller squirrels and two species of surface voles. The deeper tunneling Oregon voles keep coming back though, along with the moles and shrews.
I hope my bambusoides Albovariegata takes our 3400 ft Northern Sierra Climate. How does the Robert Young do in Oregon? Shumu ? Im seeing the same cold rating ( except Bamboogarden )which lists it to 0 and most places list Bambusoides , Robert Young to 5. I have both. we can get down to 14 every few years with the occasional 10 ( December 2009 ) we had 1 degree Fahrenheit
Jason Floyd
Hangtown Farms
Emmett Idaho
Zone 7A
Potato country
Hangtown Farms
Emmett Idaho
Zone 7A
Potato country