Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

mantis wrote:I am so confused...

So now I don't just have to worry that my B. textilis isn't a B. tuldoides, but I also have to figure out what cv. it is since it isn't an actual B. textilis???
Mike,

Welcome to the world of confusing bamboo identification.

I used to take it "personal" when I couldn't actually explain what the real ID was when talking with a person interested in bamboo. I used to think that the person was thinking "what kind of idiotic organization are you in that they can' even ID their own plants?" Now, I just treat it as being one of the Far Eastern mysteries surrounding the mystic of bamboo. :lol:

BTW: most of the "other" plant people tend to think we are a "little different"
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by mantis »

Roy wrote:
Welcome to the world of confusing bamboo identification.

I used to take it "personal" when I couldn't actually explain what the real ID was when talking with a person interested in bamboo. I used to think that the person was thinking "what kind of idiotic organization are you in that they can' even ID their own plants?" Now, I just treat it as being one of the Far Eastern mysteries surrounding the mystic of bamboo. :lol:

BTW: most of the "other" plant people tend to think we are a "little different"
:laughing1: It's good to be different. Plus, the mystery is part of the fun 8)
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by boonut »

I too used to think that there was a group of vendors just interested in selling bamboo with no regard for what they were selling. I used to think that if you asked for a "black bamboo that would grow in deep south Texas", you could get just about anything from certain vendors.

I was very frustrated when asked about large bamboo as a newbie and was sold Moso and Henon for very large prices for deep south Texas. They don't grow down here.

My first 60 or so bamboo were probably 80% misidentified. Some of this came from mislabeling... some of this came from lack of knowledge about clumpers.

I think if you are going to sell bamboo you have to stay on top of the "latest" knowledge related to bamboo... for example when did it arrive in the U.S.; where did mine come from; was it raised from seed; what do the experts agree on; etc..

That is one of the reasons I don't sell bamboo. I just feel there isn't enough knowledge for me to be very accurate in terms of ID. I wouldn't want newbies to get advice that leads them to steer away from bamboo. I prefer to say I have quite a few varieties and "there they are growing on my farm"... if you like one, here it is in pots right beside the mother. I give away bamboo like that now. In the future, when I get enough knowledge and bamboo that is over 5 years old, I may sell it with the same idea.

I have always looked up to folks like Richard Waldron, Kinder Chambers, and others that were more interested in sharing and helping folks interested in finding out more about bamboo get their starts. If you were truly interested in bamboo and wanted to help find the answers, they would give you the shirts off their backs (bamboo shirts that is).

The only thing I can do now is follow in their footsteps and try to help others get started. I no longer think there are ruthless bamboo vendors out there... some folks are better at keeping track of what they have and better business people than others... it just boils down to that. I post links to all the vendors I support on my website. That doesn't mean you will get 100% appropriate ID... it just means they try hard to "do the right thing".
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

boonut wrote:...snip...

That is one of the reasons I don't sell bamboo. I just feel there isn't enough knowledge for me to be very accurate in terms of ID. I wouldn't want newbies to get advice that leads them to steer away from bamboo. I prefer to say I have quite a few varieties and "there they are growing on my farm"... if you like one, here it is in pots right beside the mother. I give away bamboo like that now.
..snip...
Boonut,

Remember what I always say: "To most people, free stuff has very little value in it. The more free stuff you gave away, the less free stuff you can give away." Been there, done that. I tried to give away bamboo for years. Couldn't do it. When I started charging for it, then I found out there was market for a commodity that has some value in it. And then bamboo started flowing out the the old homestead.

There's more, but I see that some people's eyes are beginning to glaze over. :)
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by mantis »

Roy wrote:
There's more, but I see that some people's eyes are beginning to glaze over. :)
Nonsense... All this talk about free bamboos makes me wonder which direction to head first, south or east? :laughing1:
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by boonut »

I think I finally see what you are saying Roy. Now that you have said that about 5 times. You too gave away boo in the beginning. I didn't know that.

I have tried to give it away locally, and for the most part no takers other than Lako. I decided to let them take the cuttings after showing them how to grow their own.

Maybe you are right... time to sell, sell, sell. Most locals only remember running bamboo and want no part of it.

There will come a time when people will drive down the road to my farm and be wowed by the tall giants... that time is coming. Maybe I can charge to take tours.

I keep looking at retirement and thinking how can I learn from all the "non-profit medical centers" and do a non-profit botanical garden and own everything in town.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

boonut wrote:...snip...
I keep looking at retirement and thinking how can I learn from all the "non-profit medical centers" and do a non-profit botanical garden and own everything in town.
Hey, you might be on to something. One of my bamboo adopters runs a business called "Healing Garden and Bamboo". Although I've never been to his business, I think he sells natural products used as healing agents, bamboo, and I think he uses some of the bamboo for landscaping in his garden.
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

I was viewing a DVD (many thanks to Bob Clune, Houston, Texas, USA) of Susan Ruskin of Quindembo giving her presentation of landscaping with bamboo at the ABS Conference in Hawaii 2006

Susan did show a picture of Bambusa textilis 'Fasca', which they had formerly been calling Bambusa mutabilis. She indicated there was a general agreement that the plant, which they had been calling B. mutabilis, was really Bambusa textilis 'Fasca'. [The general agreement must have been among those in Hawaii since I have not heard that name, or a similiar name, used in many years on the mainland-Roy]

In her slide presentation, she showed a bamboo which she listed by the name of Bambusa texilis (Weaver's bamboo). She said that this was the same bamboo that had been growing in Southern California for many years. Susan said that B. textilis was one of their first bamboos and that it was still one of her favorites. [Upon first listening to the DVD, I thought she said she had gotten her B. textilis from California, but upon reviewing the DVD again, she did not indicate where she got her first start of B. textilis--Roy]

Susan said that in Florida, B. texitilis is referred to as Wong Chuk or Kana..?? and then someone off camera said "Kanapaha" [I think it was Robert Saporito--Roy]. My impression is that Susan was making no distinction between Bambusa textilis and Bambusa textilis 'Kanapaha'.

She said that if you were planting B. texitlis 'Fasca' next to B. texitlis [she refers to her bamboo as B. textilis and not B. textilis 'Kanapaha--which one does she have? I don't know. See size remarks below--Roy] you might see a difference in the two, but if not, the one would be hard pressed to see a difference. [She did not explain what she saw as the difference or that she saw a difference--Roy]

Susan said that at her nursery, her B. textilis gets to be around 35 feet. About 5 miles away, where there is more rainfall, about 52 inches per year, it might get to 55 feet. [there was no mention of diameter size of culms--Roy]

As most of the time happens, new information leads to a better understanding of information on hand, but it also leads to other questions.

1..Is Quindembo's B. textilis the same as B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
4..My original question: What's the difference between B. mutabilis (a.k.a. in Hawaii as B. tex. 'Fasca') and B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?

Hooray for Bob Clune, Houston, Texas, USA:wav:
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Mike McG »

Roy wrote:2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
Roy,
With respect to your questions above:

Question #2 probably should be posed as: Is the bamboo that has recently been called B. mutabilis in the US really a variation of B. textilis and not the B. mutabilis as described by McClure? I think you first need to ask if it is really a B. textilis rather than B. mutabilis and then whether it is 'Fasca'. From what I have read here the answer to this question with respect to it being a textilis is probably yes.

Question #3 probably should be posed as:
Is B. textilis 'Fasca' going to be added to the Source List and is the description of B. mutabilis going to be revised to match McClure's or B. mutabilis deleted from the List? Does anyone know if an original B. t. 'Fasca' exists in a botanical garden or in the trade, and is it different or the same as what was recently being called B. mutabilis? It would appear that some think it is the same and they may well be correct. Who originally named 'Fasca' and what were the characteristics that made it different than the generic form of B. textilis? One description I see on the internet indicates it is 12m x 5cm. -12?C and the same as B. Textilis but with brown hair on culm sheets. Another indicates it is 10m x 4cm max., almost identical to B textilis, with smooth green culms that have a slight roughness below the node. A third indicates that 'Fasca' is a dark variety of B. textilis, named for the dark color of the new culms that have little or none of the white powder found on B. textilis and 'Gracilis' when young, but age to the same color; becoming more golden with direct sunlight. It forms a slightly more open clump than 'Gracilis', that narrows at the base and has larger diameter (30-40mm) shoots and dark bristles on the culm sheathes. At 8 -10 meters it's not quite as big as the species type, B. textilis, yet a bit taller than 'Gracilis'. It would seem these are different than the description of B.t. 'Kanapaha' as far as size. Also, Roy, I believe you indicated that there were differences that you observed between B. textilis and what was B. mutabilis or 'Kanapaha' but I do not recalled you provided details. (Maybe I missed them and I will go back and re-read your posts.) Are these the same differences as originally identified for 'Fasca'? Lastly, from what Mike Hotchkiss indicated, it appears that the true B. mutabilis was imported into Puerto Rico and then maybe lost. I think B. mutabilis should stay in List with a note saying it may no longer exist in the US along with McClure's description.

Just my two cents and happy Thanksgiving to everyone celebrating this holiday.
Mike near Brenham TX

PS I would also like to thank Bob for his efforts in documenting the last two ABS meetings.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Mike McG wrote:
Roy wrote:2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
Roy,
With respect to your questions above:

Question #2 probably should be posed as: Is the bamboo that has recently been called B. mutabilis in the US really a variation of B. textilis and not the B. mutabilis as described by McClure? I think you first need to ask if it is really a B. textilis rather than B. mutabilis and then whether it is 'Fasca'. From what I have read here the answer to this question with respect to it being a textilis is probably yes.
I don't think any of the bamboos we have been talking about are B. mutabilis as described by McClure. If you look at the picture of B. mutabilis in Hong Kong Bamboos, the plant looks like what we refer to as a B. textilis, but the description of height and size does not match.

Question #3 probably should be posed as:
Is B. textilis 'Fasca' going to be added to the Source List and is the description of B. mutabilis going to be revised to match McClure's or B. mutabilis deleted from the List? Does anyone know if an original B. t. 'Fasca' exists in a botanical garden or in the trade, and is it different or the same as what was recently being called B. mutabilis?
In Hong Kong Bamboos, published 1985, it says that B. mutabilis "is cultivated in Tai Po Kau Nature Reserve". A picture is provided in the book. I do not believe that B. mutlilis has been imported into the mainland USA. I've been asking people for one that matches McClure's description for about 20 years

It would appear that some think it is the same and they may well be correct. Who originally named 'Fasca' and what were the characteristics that made it different than the generic form of B. textilis? One description I see on the Internet indicates it is 12m x 5cm. -12?C and the same as B. Textilis but with brown hair on culm sheets. Another indicates it is 10m x 4cm max., almost identical to B textilis, with smooth green culms that have a slight roughness below the node. A third indicates that 'Fasca' is a dark variety of B. textilis, named for the dark color of the new culms that have little or none of the white powder found on B. textilis and 'Gracilis' when young, but age to the same color; becoming more golden with direct sunlight. It forms a slightly more open clump than 'Gracilis', that narrows at the base and has larger diameter (30-40mm) shoots and dark bristles on the culm sheathes. At 8 -10 meters it's not quite as big as the species type, B. textilis, yet a bit taller than 'Gracilis'. It would seem these are different than the description of B.t. 'Kanapaha' as far as size. Also, Roy, I believe you indicated that there were differences that you observed between B. textilis and what was B. mutabilis or 'Kanapaha' but I do not recalled you provided details. (Maybe I missed them and I will go back and re-read your posts.)

Here is what I said about my B. textilis: "The main difference is size of the culms. With my B. textilis, which I've had now for 16 years, the largest diameter culms I've measured is 1 and 7/8 inches in diameter by around 40 feet. Most of the culms range in height from a little less than 40 feet to slightly over 40 feet. From seedling size, it reached full maturity around 1997. I've never measured any culms a full 2 inches. "Close, but no cigar."



Are these the same differences as originally identified for 'Fasca'? Lastly, from what Mike Hotchkiss indicated, it appears that the true B. mutabilis was imported into Puerto Rico and then maybe lost. I think B. mutabilis should stay in List with a note saying it may no longer exist in the US along with McClure's description.
B. mutabilis was listed on the Source List for many years as being 23 feet by 2 inches. That B. mutabilis never materialized in the mainland USA. I don't know who originally thought they had a B. mutabilis and who gave the description of 23 feet by 2 inches. 23 feet would be about right, but not the 2 inches.

I'm definitely still looking for one that looks like the picture of the one in Hong Kong Bamboos. Looks like a smaller version of my B. textilis.

Just my two cents and happy Thanksgiving to everyone celebrating this holiday.
With so may different cultivars (?) of B textilis around, I've beginning to think I need to come up with a distinct cultivar (?) name to distinguish mine since I know the background of mine back to the mother plant. Otherwise I might get confused and forget which one I have. :lol:

Mike near Brenham TX

PS I would also like to thank Bob for his efforts in documenting the last two ABS meetings.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Glen »

Roy wrote:1..Is Quindembo's B. textilis the same as B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
4..My original question: What's the difference between B. mutabilis (a.k.a. in Hawaii as B. tex. 'Fasca') and B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
1. I believe that Steve Carter is growing the Quindembo clone, and he is very familiar with the Mercer clump, which is likely the same as the 'Kanapaha' clone. Maybe he could shed some light here.

2. As I understand it, the plant called B. mutabilis has been in this country for quite a while. Does anyone know exactly how long? According to Quindembo's website, B. textilis 'Fasca' is "a recent import from China." Did they recently import B. textilis 'Fasca' and find that it was identical to the B. mutabilis that they already had?

3. ???

4. I hope you are eventually going to get an answer, but in the meantime, thank you for starting this thread. It has generated a great discussion that has been very educational for those of us who are relatively new to bamboo.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Glen wrote:
Roy wrote:1..Is Quindembo's B. textilis the same as B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
4..My original question: What's the difference between B. mutabilis (a.k.a. in Hawaii as B. tex. 'Fasca') and B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
1. I believe that Steve Carter is growing the Quindembo clone, and he is very familiar with the Mercer clump, which is likely the same as the 'Kanapaha' clone. Maybe he could shed some light here.
And Steve also has a B. mutabilis that he got from me.

2. As I understand it, the plant called B. mutabilis has been in this country for quite a while. Does anyone know exactly how long? According to Quindembo's website, B. textilis 'Fasca' is "a recent import from China." Did they recently import B. textilis 'Fasca' and find that it was identical to the B. mutabilis that they already had?
What I have found out is that people who are making a living don't really have the time or desire to be hunting down or sharing information with bamboo novice, which I include myself and most people on this forum. I used not to understand this, but now I look at it as one who is trying to feed a family as opposed to one who is trying to feed an obsession. :)

3. ???
Same here. A lot of questions have to answered. Getting the answers is the hard part.

4. I hope you are eventually going to get an answer, but in the meantime, thank you for starting this thread. It has generated a great discussion that has been very educational for those of us who are relatively new to bamboo. :)


Believe it or not, as a child and up through young adulthood, I was not a question ask-er. Unless someone told me something or unless I could find out on my own, I kept my mouth shut. Some still wish that I would. I know I irritate a lot of my bosses at work with my questions, but I'm trying to learn and understand. It's hard for me accept an answer just because someone said something was true, but gave no proof, logic, or explanation.
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by bambooweb »

From the 2007 species list.
B. mutabilis has been changed to B. textilis 'Mutabilis'
and the description is:
"Persistent blue-white bloom and long internodes. Previously misidentified as B. mutabilis and as B. textilis var. fusca."

The 2007 list will be up ASAP.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

bambooweb wrote:From the 2007 species list.
B. mutabilis has been changed to B. textilis 'Mutabilis'
and the description is:
"Persistent blue-white bloom and long internodes. Previously misidentified as B. mutabilis and as B. textilis var. fusca."

The 2007 list will be up ASAP.
Bill
That good news.

Now, in 2007, my question will be "Difference?: B. texitlis 'Mutabilis'/B.mutabilis/B. textilis var. fusca vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by bambooweb »

I should have added that the description for B. textilis 'Kanapaha' is now:
Grows larger than normal B. textilis in Florida, with lower half of culms prominently blue & branchless.
Bill
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