Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Mike McG wrote:
Roy wrote:2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
Roy,
With respect to your questions above:

Question #2 probably should be posed as: Is the bamboo that has recently been called B. mutabilis in the US really a variation of B. textilis and not the B. mutabilis as described by McClure? I think you first need to ask if it is really a B. textilis rather than B. mutabilis and then whether it is 'Fasca'. From what I have read here the answer to this question with respect to it being a textilis is probably yes.
I don't think any of the bamboos we have been talking about are B. mutabilis as described by McClure. If you look at the picture of B. mutabilis in Hong Kong Bamboos, the plant looks like what we refer to as a B. textilis, but the description of height and size does not match.

Question #3 probably should be posed as:
Is B. textilis 'Fasca' going to be added to the Source List and is the description of B. mutabilis going to be revised to match McClure's or B. mutabilis deleted from the List? Does anyone know if an original B. t. 'Fasca' exists in a botanical garden or in the trade, and is it different or the same as what was recently being called B. mutabilis?
In Hong Kong Bamboos, published 1985, it says that B. mutabilis "is cultivated in Tai Po Kau Nature Reserve". A picture is provided in the book. I do not believe that B. mutlilis has been imported into the mainland USA. I've been asking people for one that matches McClure's description for about 20 years

It would appear that some think it is the same and they may well be correct. Who originally named 'Fasca' and what were the characteristics that made it different than the generic form of B. textilis? One description I see on the Internet indicates it is 12m x 5cm. -12?C and the same as B. Textilis but with brown hair on culm sheets. Another indicates it is 10m x 4cm max., almost identical to B textilis, with smooth green culms that have a slight roughness below the node. A third indicates that 'Fasca' is a dark variety of B. textilis, named for the dark color of the new culms that have little or none of the white powder found on B. textilis and 'Gracilis' when young, but age to the same color; becoming more golden with direct sunlight. It forms a slightly more open clump than 'Gracilis', that narrows at the base and has larger diameter (30-40mm) shoots and dark bristles on the culm sheathes. At 8 -10 meters it's not quite as big as the species type, B. textilis, yet a bit taller than 'Gracilis'. It would seem these are different than the description of B.t. 'Kanapaha' as far as size. Also, Roy, I believe you indicated that there were differences that you observed between B. textilis and what was B. mutabilis or 'Kanapaha' but I do not recalled you provided details. (Maybe I missed them and I will go back and re-read your posts.)

Here is what I said about my B. textilis: "The main difference is size of the culms. With my B. textilis, which I've had now for 16 years, the largest diameter culms I've measured is 1 and 7/8 inches in diameter by around 40 feet. Most of the culms range in height from a little less than 40 feet to slightly over 40 feet. From seedling size, it reached full maturity around 1997. I've never measured any culms a full 2 inches. "Close, but no cigar."



Are these the same differences as originally identified for 'Fasca'? Lastly, from what Mike Hotchkiss indicated, it appears that the true B. mutabilis was imported into Puerto Rico and then maybe lost. I think B. mutabilis should stay in List with a note saying it may no longer exist in the US along with McClure's description.
B. mutabilis was listed on the Source List for many years as being 23 feet by 2 inches. That B. mutabilis never materialized in the mainland USA. I don't know who originally thought they had a B. mutabilis and who gave the description of 23 feet by 2 inches. 23 feet would be about right, but not the 2 inches.

I'm definitely still looking for one that looks like the picture of the one in Hong Kong Bamboos. Looks like a smaller version of my B. textilis.

Just my two cents and happy Thanksgiving to everyone celebrating this holiday.
With so may different cultivars (?) of B textilis around, I've beginning to think I need to come up with a distinct cultivar (?) name to distinguish mine since I know the background of mine back to the mother plant. Otherwise I might get confused and forget which one I have. :lol:

Mike near Brenham TX

PS I would also like to thank Bob for his efforts in documenting the last two ABS meetings.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Glen »

Roy wrote:1..Is Quindembo's B. textilis the same as B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
4..My original question: What's the difference between B. mutabilis (a.k.a. in Hawaii as B. tex. 'Fasca') and B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
1. I believe that Steve Carter is growing the Quindembo clone, and he is very familiar with the Mercer clump, which is likely the same as the 'Kanapaha' clone. Maybe he could shed some light here.

2. As I understand it, the plant called B. mutabilis has been in this country for quite a while. Does anyone know exactly how long? According to Quindembo's website, B. textilis 'Fasca' is "a recent import from China." Did they recently import B. textilis 'Fasca' and find that it was identical to the B. mutabilis that they already had?

3. ???

4. I hope you are eventually going to get an answer, but in the meantime, thank you for starting this thread. It has generated a great discussion that has been very educational for those of us who are relatively new to bamboo.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Glen wrote:
Roy wrote:1..Is Quindembo's B. textilis the same as B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
2..Is B. mutabilis really B. tex. 'Fasca'?
3..Is B. mutabilis' name in the ABS Source List going to change to B. t. 'Fasca?
4..My original question: What's the difference between B. mutabilis (a.k.a. in Hawaii as B. tex. 'Fasca') and B. textilis 'Kanapaha'?
1. I believe that Steve Carter is growing the Quindembo clone, and he is very familiar with the Mercer clump, which is likely the same as the 'Kanapaha' clone. Maybe he could shed some light here.
And Steve also has a B. mutabilis that he got from me.

2. As I understand it, the plant called B. mutabilis has been in this country for quite a while. Does anyone know exactly how long? According to Quindembo's website, B. textilis 'Fasca' is "a recent import from China." Did they recently import B. textilis 'Fasca' and find that it was identical to the B. mutabilis that they already had?
What I have found out is that people who are making a living don't really have the time or desire to be hunting down or sharing information with bamboo novice, which I include myself and most people on this forum. I used not to understand this, but now I look at it as one who is trying to feed a family as opposed to one who is trying to feed an obsession. :)

3. ???
Same here. A lot of questions have to answered. Getting the answers is the hard part.

4. I hope you are eventually going to get an answer, but in the meantime, thank you for starting this thread. It has generated a great discussion that has been very educational for those of us who are relatively new to bamboo. :)


Believe it or not, as a child and up through young adulthood, I was not a question ask-er. Unless someone told me something or unless I could find out on my own, I kept my mouth shut. Some still wish that I would. I know I irritate a lot of my bosses at work with my questions, but I'm trying to learn and understand. It's hard for me accept an answer just because someone said something was true, but gave no proof, logic, or explanation.
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by bambooweb »

From the 2007 species list.
B. mutabilis has been changed to B. textilis 'Mutabilis'
and the description is:
"Persistent blue-white bloom and long internodes. Previously misidentified as B. mutabilis and as B. textilis var. fusca."

The 2007 list will be up ASAP.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

bambooweb wrote:From the 2007 species list.
B. mutabilis has been changed to B. textilis 'Mutabilis'
and the description is:
"Persistent blue-white bloom and long internodes. Previously misidentified as B. mutabilis and as B. textilis var. fusca."

The 2007 list will be up ASAP.
Bill
That good news.

Now, in 2007, my question will be "Difference?: B. texitlis 'Mutabilis'/B.mutabilis/B. textilis var. fusca vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by bambooweb »

I should have added that the description for B. textilis 'Kanapaha' is now:
Grows larger than normal B. textilis in Florida, with lower half of culms prominently blue & branchless.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

bambooweb wrote:I should have added that the description for B. textilis 'Kanapaha' is now:
Grows larger than normal B. textilis in Florida, with lower half of culms prominently blue & branchless.
Bill
Let me also show you that the B. texitlis 'Mutabilis'/B.mutabilis/B. textilis var. fusca is branchless for about the first 18 feet. (Blue and branchless)


This new clump is behind a 6 foot fence and the culms aren't even full size yet--getting close to the 2 inch mark. At about 2.25 inches in diameter, the first branch bud is about 18 feet from the ground. I've dug out and measured several at 2.25 inch diameter.
<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo/B.m_tab1394.jpg" alt="Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis'">
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by kinderc »

"I should have added that the description for B. textilis 'Kanapaha' is now:
Grows larger than normal B. textilis in Florida, with lower half of culms prominently blue & branchless. "
Having "been there", seen "that" at Kanapaha Gardens and personally visited w/ the Director there, we might need to take into account that Kanapaha Gardens are TOTALLY watered w/ the effluent from the town of Gainsville sewage plant . THAT perhaps just might make a difference in it's growth pattern. i.e. THE OLD QUESTION :: is it's exceptional growth and size due to it's "gene's " or the environment. (In this case the well nitrated water, that it is receiving..)..
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

kinderc wrote:"I should have added that the description for B. textilis 'Kanapaha' is now:
Grows larger than normal B. textilis in Florida, with lower half of culms prominently blue & branchless. "
Having "been there", seen "that" at Kanapaha Gardens and personally visited w/ the Director there, we might need to take into account that Kanapaha Gardens are TOTALLY watered w/ the effluent from the town of Gainsville sewage plant . THAT perhaps just might make a difference in it's growth pattern. i.e. THE OLD QUESTION :: is it's exceptional growth and size due to it's "gene's " or the environment. (In this case the well nitrated water, that it is receiving..)..
Kinder,

If that the case, then I think that definitely would or could be the answer for "larger than type". Good old Gainesville Viagra Water! Straight out of the bull gators at University of Florida.
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Bamboo Outlaw »

TOTALLY watered w/ the effluent from the town of Gainsville sewage plant

Roy, Kinder let slip the secret of Florida's Viagra water.

Mike in Houston took pics of a lot of the Mercer bamboo during March Mart. I will write him and see if he can post the two by the visitor center.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Bamboo Outlaw wrote:TOTALLY watered w/ the effluent from the town of Gainsville sewage plant

Roy, Kinder let slip the secret of Florida's Viagra water.

Mike in Houston took pics of a lot of the Mercer bamboo during March Mart. I will write him and see if he can post the two by the visitor center.
Bamboo Outlaw

I would love to see the pictures.

On the TBS forum this is part of the ongoing discussion about these 2. This is part of what I have posted:

Kinder and Steve C.,

....snip...
I?ve had some people to tell me that my B. tex. ?Mutabilis? is to open of a clumper to be B. tex. ?Kanapaha, but look at these 2 images and see what I see:

B. textilis ?Mutabilis? (not full size in this picture) at Roy?s place in Tampa
http://tinyurl.com/ywykyd

And look at this Bambusa textilis 'Kanapaha' (not full size yet)- Nov 2006, Buu Mon Gardens Port Arthur TX USA
http://www.bamboocraft.net/bamboo/showp ... ig&cat=740
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

I've been growing Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis' (2007 ABS Source List change from Bambusa mutabilis) for a good number of years and in the last couple of years have acquired Bambusa textilis 'Kanapaha'. Since, in my opinion, I believe these two bamboos to really be the same bamboo, I was perplexed as to how I was going to market these 2 bamboos. With over a quarter of a century in working with bamboo, one's credibility is an important factor and something that I would definitely like to maintain. So, when I participated in a Spring plant sale this weekend, I did the following:

I took similar size plants of both Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis' and Bambusa textilis 'Kanapaha' to the plant sale. Then I give my customers a good old American tradition of "Choice". For each size of Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis', I marked a certain price. For each similar size of Bambusa textilis 'Kanapaha', I doubled the price.

For those who would ask "What's a Kanapaha?", the decision was an easy one. For those hardcore who said "I've just got to have a Kanapaha", the decision process came with a lot of anguish and ringing of hands. Some of the hardcore even asked "It (B. tx. 'Mutabilis) looks just like the Kanapaha. Can't I just call it a Kanapaha?" My response was "Choice, my friend, is what it's all about". Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis' won the day (or both days really).

<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... _Combo.jpg" alt="Bambusa textilis 'Mutabilis'">
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

Another one bits the dust.

I've been working on trying to find any differences in these 2 for quite some time. I remembered seeing the planting of B. textilis 'Kanapaha' at Mercer Gardens, a few years ago, but couldn't remember where I could find the images. Something had stuck in the back of my mind about these pictures. Bamboo Outlaw came to the rescue and sent me the pictures about 6 months ago. So, I've spent the last 6 months researching what I thought was unusual in the pictures.

Note the lower branching on some of the B. textilis 'Kanapaha" culms. One of the key characteristics for most any bamboos with the name "textilis" in it is the absence of lowering branching. Well, low and behold, I see branches on the lower portion of this textilis in the picture. I don't remember ever seeing any lower branch buds on B. mutabilis at that size. That's what I've been reaching and comparing for the last 6 months between the 2 bamboos at STFU.

In the last 6 months I did find some finger size B. mutabilis and B. textilis 'Kanapaha' that did have some lower branch buds way down near the basal nodes. That's not very unusual. In the last week I've been digging out B. tx. mutabilis culms that are in the 25 to 35 foot range. Low and behold I have found 2 culms that do have lower branch buds all the way down to the basal nodes. Although these branch buds were not producing any branches, and they were a somewhat smaller than a normal branch bud, if the culm is topped heavily, then I feel like the branch buds would branch out and produce branches much as you see in the images below.

Now I'm back again at "absolute zero" in the differences between the 2.

BTW: I've never seen my regular B. texilis (which I've had for about 17 years) have lower branch buds on normal sized culms. As the culms come out larger, then the first appearance of a branch bud moves further and further up the culms.


Image

Image

Image
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RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by bamboo gazer »

Roy, I have both planted in my back yard. I purchased both from Sherry Snodgrass. I would like to think that the two are different especially since Kanapaha was about double the price. Both are too young to tell much yet, but are growing strong and healthy. Will post if i detect anything different.
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Re: RE: Difference?: B. mutabilis vs B. textilis 'Kanapaha'

Post by Roy »

bamboo gazer wrote:Roy, I have both planted in my back yard. I purchased both from Sherry Snodgrass. I would like to think that the two are different especially since Kanapaha was about double the price. Both are too young to tell much yet, but are growing strong and healthy. Will post if i detect anything different.
Well, I give people the choice. B. tex. mutabilis at price "X" and B. tex. Kanapaha at price "2X".

I think there is a market strategy kicking in here. If something is twice the price of another item, then it must be worth about twice as much. Right?

Let me know when you think you find a difference between the two. I've spent several years looking for detailed differences that will hold up over time and be consistently different. I haven't found any yet. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. I even challenge anyone to prove me wrong. I take being proved that I'm wrong as a learning experience, not something to pout about.
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