Internet Fargesia seed & plants

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Chris S
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Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Chris S »

Ordering tropical seed on the internet has long been known to be, how shall we put it, somewhat risky, and I mean not just because if you do it in the US you may get a visit from polite but serious gentlemen in uniforms, but also because of some creative marketing and product diversification of some pretty boring seed, usually just Dendrocalamus strictus or Bambusa bambos.

The same has unfortunately now started to apply to Fargesia and Borinda plants as well. Those who have purchased a range of seed or plants over the last 3 years have been surprised by the consistency of the seedlings sold under about 20 different names... In fact they are indistinguishable, because they are all the same. This is a Borinda, which does not seem to match the description of any published species.

It should be mentioned that some such plants are in the ABS auction, so I draw attention to this to avoid any later recrimination. There have already been some frank discussions about this issue, but I wish to stick to the identification.

See http://www.bamboo-identification.co.uk/ ... _seed.html

Caveat emptor.

I would like to congratulate US growers and collectors for their concern to use accurate and consistent names for bamboos. Considering the difficulties in distinguishing between bamboos and the poor state of taxonomic knowledge I am always impressed with how much effort you guys put into bamboo identification.

Keep up the good work

Chris
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by johnw »

Thanks for that Chris, that was my assumption as well. And presumably "all" are too tender for gardens in the mid-west or eastern parts of North America.

john
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
Tarzanus
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Tarzanus »

Thank you for sharing this link, it sums up everything I was thinking in the last few years, growing Borinda fungosa (bought to be, at least ... :D ) seedlings. I'm still calling it Borinda fungosa, but I'm hoping things clear up and we end up with a real name.

-3C might be a bit pessimistic. Last winter it battled the cold all the way down to -8C, when temperature closed on around -10C, it was toasted, but it might not be the cold itself but the fact that we haven't seen above freezing temperatures for more than a week, perhaps even more. Soil was moist the whole time and it never froze more than a centimeter or two deep.
Most of the culms were completely defoliated when it warmed up. With spring, all culms from previous year restarted, except tender late autumn shoots that got fried, but even those shoots remained alive in lower nodes (it seems they hardened enough up to 1m, above that, culms remained green, but all the branches that started growing in the beginning of the winter, were completely fried despite being tightly covered with culm sheath).
Final culm color seems to be brown-ish yellow. I'll have to see thicker shoots to mature and monitor it for a couple of years, but it does seem dark purple, red or almost black sun-tanned color turns into yellow->brown gradient kind of color. I hope I can keep it alive indefinitely, because it's gorgeous bamboo to have. Despite being transplanted, being frozen in the winter and heat stressed during the summer, the beast now grows around 3m high. Well in the winter it will be 3 m wide. :mrgreen:

And we are not only US growers. :D
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Nicholas »

Tarzanus wrote:Thank you for sharing this link, it sums up everything I was thinking in the last few years, growing Borinda fungosa (bought to be, at least ... :D ) seedlings. I'm still calling it Borinda fungosa, but I'm hoping things clear up and we end up with a real name.

...

I hope I can keep it alive indefinitely, because it's gorgeous bamboo to have. Despite being transplanted, being frozen in the winter and heat stressed during the summer, the beast now grows around 3m high. Well in the winter it will be 3 m wide. :mrgreen:

And we are not only US growers. :D
I've also got one of these growing potted in my backyard bought as fargesia gaolinensis seeds.
It is great that there are efforts being made to correctly identify this species. While it is not impressively hardy (I had major leaf burn even above freezing due to strong winds)
the form, at least on my seedling, is really beautiful.
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Chris S »

The hardiness of Borindas seems to be correlated with leaf size. This one has leaves about the same size as those of Borinda papyrifera, and from early experience, hardiness sounds similar.

Hardiness is always difficult to compare. A long growing season, hot summers, shorter winter nights, lack of wind etc in sthn Europe help bamboos tolerate temperatures that would wipe them out in northern England or Canada. -3 C (27F) in England and -7 C (19F) in Slovenia might have about the same effect.

To be really sure of leaves surviving the winter and these potentially big Borindas getting up to the sizes they reach in China I think we are talking Zone 9 here, Hawaii, Florida, California, Cornwall & sthn Europe, not Nova Scotia! I hope I am pessimistic because I have a lovely big specimen planted out and I don't want to lose it. Last winter I had a minimum of -1 C and it was fine. The winter before was -15 C and it was in a heated polytunnel. I will be watching it and the thermometer closely.

Just beware the misinformation like this:

http://www.exotic-plants.de/seeds/bambo ... gensis.php

"Fargesia songmingensis hardy clumping bamboo seeds

Fargesia songmingensis, syn. Borinda songmingensis an absolutely hardy bamboo (to -25 C), clumping. Fargesia songmingensis is 10 m - 15 m high with a diameter up to 10 cm. "

and check out that picture!

I get very embarrassed when bamboo names and information are so bad in Europe. Today I was chuckling at UK nursery websites selling "Fargesia murieliae 'Rufa', Fountain Bamboo". We need the discipline of the ABS and a Source List.


Chris
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by johnw »

We have few problems with the Fargesia spp. here on the coast but the Borinda spp. seems to be cranky individuals. I stored B. macclureana and B. yulongshanensis for the winter at +4-+8c and nearly lost both whereas young Fargesias didn't bat an eyelash. These Borindas were big stout specimens but did not seem to like the darkish conditions. I'm not taking extraordinary measure to save the mac but the yulong was very expensive and seems to be worth a try here.

It has been suggested by German friend that "Borinda grossa (KR 5913) & KR 5287 might be hardy to -15 (leaf) to -20c (culm) and worth a try here on the coast. What do you think Chris? Or any others worth a try? Note we are maritime on the coast here. They say these are as hardy as F. sp. 'Scabrida' and it is doing surprisingly well here - picture from Friday. I have a notion that many Fargesias are badly weakened by the humid summer heat of mid & eastern North America thus reducing their temperature tolerances. Maybe the same for Borindas??? The Fargesias do well here where Meconopsis thrive.
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Fargesia sp. 'Scabrida' IH DSCF9069.JPG
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Nicholas »

Chris S wrote: Just beware the misinformation like this:

http://www.exotic-plants.de/seeds/bambo ... gensis.php

"Fargesia songmingensis hardy clumping bamboo seeds

Fargesia songmingensis, syn. Borinda songmingensis an absolutely hardy bamboo (to -25 C), clumping. Fargesia songmingensis is 10 m - 15 m high with a diameter up to 10 cm. "

and check out that picture!

I get very embarrassed when bamboo names and information are so bad in Europe. Today I was chuckling at UK nursery websites selling "Fargesia murieliae 'Rufa', Fountain Bamboo". We need the discipline of the ABS and a Source List.

Chris
Ah, exotic plants..... It may actually be where I have my seedling from. This was back when I wasn't that much into bamboo but even then I knew not to expect miracles.

What really disappointed me was that they also sold phyllostachys nigra seeds at the time which turned out to be just some odd grass seeds.
With some of the unofficial flowering reports regarding nigra I thought I'd try them even if it seemed improbable.
The response from exotic plants was okay after a bit of back and forth and I did get the price of those seeds refunded on my next order but I must say that generally ordering seeds online from various sources has usually left me dissatisfied.

The problem is that with many plants it takes a long time for characteristics to show from germination onwards so by the time you could actually write a meaningful review you are occupied with other things or might even have forgotten where that particular seed came from. Add to that the fact that most places sell a lot of old seeds so you will generally have abysmal germination rates.
(of course it is always the customer who is incapable of germinating seeds...)
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Tarzanus »

I did get the seeds from exotic plants, and yes, I did expect cold hardy bamboo variety, but I did some research and appropriately lower the expectations. :)

Leaves were up to 15 cm long on fresh culms and much smaller on 2nd year culms (that got leaf-fried winter before). They all reacted to the cold just the same, first there was no sign of damage whatsoever, then leaves started to show dark spots, but remained healthy, they folded during cold sunny mornings and unfolded when it was warm and/or overcast. After prolonged freeze, all the leaves spiked up and when it was over, warm rainy weather arrived, leaves became chlorotic and only unfolded after a good soaking. Then I knew it was totally fried. In exposed places temperature could get below -10 or even -12C for short period of time in the morning. I have to determine if it was the cold that finished the leaves or perhaps the duration of the freezing temperatures - Bamboo did show all signs of desiccation stress, especially with thick fog at around -3C to -1C (day and night).

I think it can handle temperatures down to -10C for a while, when established enough, but it will get defoliated when daily highs remain below freezing. Another thing is, that culms actually made it quite OK. All of them renewed in the spring and the new branches that started growing a couple of weeks after the freezing, remained alive and went on in the spring. The branches were a bit chlorotic in the spring, looking quite pale and weak, but they resisted even temperatures below -5C, thick ice cover, winter sun exposure and moderate dry winds.

I guess each winter we'll know more about hardiness. I still hope it's capable of withstanding -15C for a short duration and perhaps with age a bit more resilience against long cold exposures. Winter is coming, we'll see next batch of results soon, hopefully not too soon!
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by grabhorn »

I'm sorry if I'm being dense here, but does this:

"It should be mentioned that some such plants are in the ABS auction, so I draw attention to this to avoid any later recrimination. There have already been some frank discussions about this issue, but I wish to stick to the identification."

mean that some of the plants in the ABS auction may not be what they are purported to be?
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Chris S »

To Grabhorn:
There are 4 bamboo names in the auction that are not verified: F. gaolinensis, F. songmingensis, Fargesia sp. 'Black Culm', and F. yuanjiangensis.
The bottom line is that these tentative names are not reliable. They (and 7 other names) have been applied to the same bamboo species supplied by a seed supplier and nursery in China. This is a very nice bamboo species, and new to cultivation in the US, but not as hardy as might be hoped. As they are probably all the same species don't bid for more than one of them expecting them to be different!

To John W:
Suitability of Borinda species for Canada and other places with a US min temp based zone of 6-8: hardiest of all are the mostly deciduous ones, B. frigidorum, B. frigidorum aff., B. muliensis, then among the evergreen ones B. yulongshanensis (a small species with thick leaves), probably then followed by B. macclureana, then B. angustissima, then B. nujiangensis, then B. contracta, then B. papyrifera and the other large species which are really only reliable in zone 9. Essentially the smaller the species the hardier, both for culm size and average leaf size.
KR has introduced more than 70 bamboos into the UK, several of these being B. macclureana. Their precise identities and characteristics may take quite a while to sort out, as the taxonomy of bamboos in the areas in which he collected them is still in a rather primitive state. Hardiest ones are possibly Fargesia, not Borinda. Collaborative fieldwork in Tibet may be necessary to find out more about them all. Fargesias and deciduous Borindas are good in cold dark winters, summer heat can be very bad. Evergreen Borindas need more winter warmth and light, but summer heat and humidity is usually not a problem.

To Nicholas:
Others agree with you. Do a search in this forum on 'perfect scam' to find more on deliberate mis-selling of internet bamboo seed.

To Tarzanus and Nicholas:
Thanks for the information on hardiness of this unnamed bamboo, which I think maybe should be called the spider-like Borinda, B. arachnoides, not only because of its prominent spreading leaf sheath bristles, but also the way it crawls all over the web!
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by johnw »

Chris - The Linder form of B. yulongshanensis is said to have been collected at 3962m in Yunnan. But they don't say where in Yunnan and what it grows in association with. At that altitude are we into the alpine region with Taliensia rhodos or still in broadleaf evergreen tree forests? The altitude sounds promising but the soft look of the plant does not bode well for the hardiness requireds. I wonder how it tolerates leaf loss?

Do you think a 6m or even a 7m hardy bamboo that tolerates cool summers and Z6 or Z7 could possibly be found in the wild?

Lastly are there any Phyllostachys species whose natural habitat and altitudinal ranges are known or has man simply moved them all around too much?
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Tarzanus »

johnw wrote: I wonder how it tolerates leaf loss?

Do you think a 6m or even a 7m hardy bamboo that tolerates cool summers and Z6 or Z7 could possibly be found in the wild?
I can only say for my Borinda seedling, it does seem to tolerate leaf loss extremely well. While the seedling was no.2 Borinda seedling and I neglected it, keeping it outside in a small pot even with the frosts that arrived in late autumn, it got completely defoliated. I kept it inside without any special light for the winter and it re-leafed, but acted more like a vine, not bamboo. After I planted it outside, it produced shoots in the spring and they were abnormally large - like 10 times thicker - it looked like it's different plant.
Second winter, defoliated completely, re-leafed in the spring and put out shoot as thick as late autumn shoots that were sadly killed by early frost. Late autumn, shoots appeared again and were again upsized considerably. Another winter, another defoliation - then I transplanted it in the spring, so it started shooting (like a month?) later than usual, but the shoots were around last year's growth. 1.5 months later, when first shoots started to branch out, second wave of shoots appeared, and those were again greatly upsized (2 times thicker than previous shoots reached 3m and should soon start to branch out - I hope they harden enough for the winter, but I'm afraid I may lose almost everything this year).

After complete defoliation, it seems to recover completely, the thing that hurts it is loss of autumn shoots, and it just LOVES to shoot at that time of year. I'd call it semi-deciduous plant with bad late shooting habit :mrgreen: .
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Chris S »

Borinda yulongshanensis is from Yulong Shan, the Jade Dragon Snow Mountain above Tiger Leaping Gorge near Lijiang in Yunnan Province. Here is a view in Google Earth that shows why it is called Jade Dragon http://www.bamboo-identification.co.uk/ ... nensis.kmz

Here is a picture of it taken by a colleague at Kew, Jill Cowley in 1990, somewhere between 3700 and 4200m, showing a short bamboo around the treeline. It is hard to get a sense of scale, but I would guess 3m maximum height.
Yulong Shan
Yulong Shan
I saw the KR introduction KR4206 in 1999 and it had very tough little rubbery leaves that looked as though they could be very hardy. His collection details were: CHINA: Yunnan, Lijiang, Yulongxue shan, Gang Ho Ba, starting at 27.05' 034 N, 100.15' 539 E, at 3100m to 3250m via the dried up lake bed and river gravel running down from the glaciers on the YuLong shan; shrub in Abies forest on moraine at 3250m. 9/11/96.

I have not seen the Linder collection myself yet, but there are pictures on the internet. It does not look like the plant photographed by Jill or Keith's 4206, looking like a bigger and less hardy species. But we have a height of 3962m for it, very high indeed.

The original description of this species by T.P. Yi in 1988 gave an altitudinal range to 4200m, and a culm height of 5-7m, which are probably incompatible, and I suspect there are 2 species involved, KR4206 being small and hardiest, Linder's bigger but not so hardy. This complicates anything that is written about yulongshanensis, a problem that is compounded further by the misidentification of nujiangensis as yulongshanensis, which is still repeated in some places.

At the highest altitudes where substantial cold hardiness would be most expected I would have thought the winter weather would probably preclude a culm height exceeding 2-3 metres, but maybe it would grow bigger in a better climate. Nevertheless if there is a really big Borinda that is also really hardy I think it is likely to be found lower down and to have an unnecessary degree of hardiness by accident. Finding it may be difficult!
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Nicholas »

johnw wrote:Chris - The Linder form of B. yulongshanensis is said to have been collected at 3962m in Yunnan. But they don't say where in Yunnan and what it grows in association with. At that altitude are we into the alpine region with Taliensia rhodos or still in broadleaf evergreen tree forests? The altitude sounds promising but the soft look of the plant does not bode well for the hardiness requireds. I wonder how it tolerates leaf loss?

Do you think a 6m or even a 7m hardy bamboo that tolerates cool summers and Z6 or Z7 could possibly be found in the wild?

Lastly are there any Phyllostachys species whose natural habitat and altitudinal ranges are known or has man simply moved them all around too much?
I really wonder if it would make more sense to get a large number of seeds from a tall, not quite hardy enough bamboo and hope that there is enough variance to get a cultivar with desirable characteristics rather than seeking an elusive wild species. Does anyone have approximate numbers of the probability for a seedling in the wild to make it?

To me it seems more probable to find something interesting by germinating thousands of seeds under optimal conditions and then have the local environment do the selection.

By the way what is the state of the art at the moment when it comes to inducing flowering? Is that already possible with reliable results?
I think once we can reliably force bamboos to flower and produce seed it will open up very interesting paths and who knows,
maybe that extra-hardy clumping giant bamboo one day will be a reality ;-)
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Re: Internet Fargesia seed & plants

Post by Tarzanus »

Nicholas, using tissue culture techniques, you can grow flower from single bamboo cell, take the pollen and/or pollinate (cross pollinate) it. When seeds mature, with a lot of luck they can even be viable. Plant hormones are universal to most of the plant species which means it's most likely possible to get viable seeds or even create bamboo hybrids with tissue cultures. The thing is, even if you are successful and get viable seeds, there's only 10 or 20% chance the seedling will be strong enough to survive, if you add probability to make super-hardy seedling into equation, you might want to play lottery instead. With a lot of effort, a lot of invested time and money, I'm sure it's more than possible to create superior bamboo seedlings without using genetic modifications, but I doubt it could be done without enormous available resources.
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