Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

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ShmuBamboo
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by ShmuBamboo »

Synthetic nitrogen will be taken up by plants the same as organic. This has been proven many times at UC Davis test sites. Also bamboos store food all year and move food around just before and during shooting season. Hence feeding them or not around shooting season does not seem to affect the net height or culm wall thickness, or internode length. I know that many boo plantation owners in the west feed their boos heavily with urea in the late winter. I put it off until I see good growth in my grass lawns, where there has been enough heat for grasses to become more active. I have not seen much difference between feeding my boos earlier than shooting season, though I feed them fairly heavily during the growing season here, well into the fall. Some years I use sheep poop which is quite hot in nitrogen, and other years I use organic water soluble fertilizer. If anything I have found that less feeding will result in overall weaker and poorer growth and stature in my boos (of all types). The boos seem to sort out how much energy they have available before shooting, and shoot in size and number accordingly. My guess is that it is an auxin driven process (plant hormones that regulate and control plant growth).

I have also found that boo internode length and total height is far more dependent on shooting season temperature than feeding around shooting season. Warmer springs will result in longer internodes and taller culms, and they tend to be weaker than cooler growing shorter internode culms. This year I have had several wet heavy snow dumps, and none of my vivax culms have snapped as they have in previous similar snow dumps. Last spring was wet and cool with late snows, and the vivax culms (actually most of my boo culms) were shorter and stouter as a result. This all applies to cool climate growing bamboos though, in zone 7b.
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Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

That's interesting, and good that you offer some observations, Schmu, maybe you can explain this one, I had six foot upsize in vivax, with no nitrogen, organic or synthetic. It kind of made me think what is really going on down there in the ground. Now I'm reading about some microorganisms recently discovered that produce nitrogen in symbiosis with non-legume plants. I would think that high nitrogen applications would tend to wipe out these microorganisms, because the plant would no longer need to feed sugars to these symbionts. Then, the plant would require n application rather than it being an option, maybe. It's pretty complex down there in the dirt, millions of different species of microoranisms. I switched over to organic five years ago, just like that, and I'm getting a lot less disease and pest pressures in all of my plants, haven't even sprayed one fruit tree in the entire time. Drought tolerance has gone up I water less, now. Trying to explain this to traditional gardeners it sounds so counterintuitive to them, I have my suspicions why it seems to be superior to old school but it is so damn complicated down there. At the time I was in college, I thought our microorganism professor Dr. Krazynksi, that's not how it's actually spelt, was an organic zealot and sort of a dbag, which he was, but he insisted that nitrogen was very harmful to the milieu down in the dirt. But instead of using science to explain himself, he mostly used ad hominem reasons as he was very much against capitalism.

Mike
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

When I have ferilized, it has been mostly sugars and micros, i.e. dried molasses and rock powders, and I strive to keep the milieu in the soil stable by not altering it radically at any one time, as my guru suggests that "stability" is what allows all of those yet undiscovered symbionts not have to struggle to survive nor face boom bust-life cycles.

Mike
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

The good thing about the subject of biology is that it transcends politics, as I tend to be a right wing gun-totin' zealot, myself, lol. Actually my mother and wife are from communist east europe, so I guess that makes me a commie basher, as well. That's why me and Krazynksi didn't get along, he gave me my first B in three years, I graduated and thought about complaining about it but I didn't. I decided to let the pinko professor off the hook, he made inappropriate gestures to female students and I was going to tell him he was a perv for giving me a B, which I know was not possible.

Mike


PS- Kidding about being an open carrier of a firearm, the gun nut is the brother and dad was a career army man who locked up all the guns when he came home from vietnam, including bb guns.
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

Bottom line, Schmu, everything I do I try to use the tools I was given in school to be analytical and I did not try to be organic due to my politics, but because we have a young daughter and I remember the allergic reactions I would get working around pesticides at Home Depot years ago. A lot of those poisons have been banned since then. It was only after I started experimenting with soil and organic gardening, did I realize something's going on that nobody explained back in school. Of course, I also have twenty-four hours of chemistry, and had been a big fan of chemistry, but I realize now you cannot separate the chemistry from the biology going on around the roots. So, the UC Davis studies are misleading in a way, since for example, a legume when you give it a lot of nitrogen, can actually get set back where as another plant with the same amount of n will not. This shows me that there can be adverse effects of using n on a plant, due to it's effect on symbionts. A plant would absorb synthetic nitrogen through it's rootlets, and we now know that the rootlets are only part of the root system, the hyphae from fungal relationships actually extend the root mass surface area way beyond just the rootlets, doubling tripling and beyond. So, synthetic n is only absorbed by a portion of the total functional root mass, and may be destructive to the hyphae, cutting back the overall surface area of the root mass considerably if this is the case. Thus, the root system is constantly growing, and then set back if all this is true. This is the equivalent of constantly getting sick, taking an antibiotic, weakening the immune system, then getting sick again. It also seems to explain why I have been able to cut back watering about forty percent, with no ill effects on the landscape. Very interesting to say the least.

Mike
ShmuBamboo
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by ShmuBamboo »

Legumes can and do fix nitrogen out of the air, and hence they do not need nitrogen fertilizer. Bamboos cannot do that. Completely different plant, and different requirements. I do not know about any "new" microbes in the soil, and maybe I am old school. But my methods work for me and my bamboos here in the cool wet PNW. I get faster growth from bamboos using pasture management feeding practices. I apply fertilizers at the time when they will be of maximum benefit, the timing of which is based on heat summation in the spring and during shooting, when grasses become active and will get the most benefit from feeding. After that I let the boos tell me when they want to be fed. Generally their old leaves will turn yellow when they are lacking nitrogen and I will feed them half strength organic water soluble nitrogen until they green up again. Usually that is within one or two feedings, and typically it happens in early summer and again just before rhizome shooting in late summer or early fall. Nitrogen is highly soluble in water, and what the bamboos do not take up is either washed away in the water runoff, or it is taken up by the microbes in the soil and in my case, by the microbes in the wood chips that I cover my bamboos in. I have a good 4 inches of coarse wood chips around my bamboos for several reasons: it keeps the roots cooler in summer and warmer in winter; it helps retain moisture in the soil; microbes on the wood chips take up a lot of nitrogen in the process of digesting the wood, and they then release it slowly back to the soil over time. The wood also has small plants particles in and on it that worms like to eat, and I feed my worms here a lot of plant matter. They help aerate the soil and feed the boos with worm castings. The worms also attract moles and they dig tunnels and aerate the soil even more, but the tunnels also are then used by voles, who happen to like to dine on their favorite meal on my property, which happens to be bamboo rhizomes. I have a fat cat that pretty much lives on voles here, he considers them a delicacy. So there are a lot of secondary fertilizer activity going on in this process.

As for feeding the soil with sugar, I do not agree that that is very effective for soil health. Plants make sugars with nitrogen and sunlight. So I apply nitrogen and sunlight. The plants can move nitrogen and sugars around inside themselves, to storage areas and to the roots. There are certainly symbiotic relationships between plants and microbes like the fungal mass in the soil, and both benefit from the other down in the roots and fungal mass in the soil. I have found no need to feed the fungal mass though, as it seems to get what it needs from the plants and from the organics that are involved above; wood chips seem to be a great medium for a lot of fungi, as I always have gobs of mushrooms flowering in my wood chip compost piles and among my bamboos here. Various types of fungi loves decomposed sheep poop as well. I do not inoculate the soil here with any spores, they occur naturally. I have posted about this and debated about that here on this forum in the past, but again UC Davis studies show that fungus is naturally occurring in the soil and you do not really need to scatter spores to get the beneficial results from the fungal mass, any more than you need to add compost starter to organic matter to get it to heat up and rot. I can pile up a half yard or so of just about any organic matter here and within a week it will be heated up and digesting all on its own.

I look at it this way: I help the process along and apply some critical ingredients to my property, by digging in the plants, applying water when it is dry, adding wood chips once a year and fertilizer as needed, and the process is automatic. Plants, fungus and animals all evolved together on this planet, and grazing animals have been foraging, peeing and pooping on grasslands for as long as grasses have been on this planet. Bamboos evolved with the ability to take up nitrogen and other fertilizers. I get good results with my methods growing bamboos here. I use different methods for my blueberries and cane berries, and I do not fertilize my half acre pinot noir vineyard at all. Growing and harvesting grapes requires a completely different process. But in all of these horticultural ventures of mine, I have found that the UC Davis, Oregon State U. and Washington State U. recommended methods for growing a lot if different plants to be very effective. I also use my own experience and tweek their prescribed methods accordingly.
Happy trails...
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

Good info.


Mike
Last edited by Mackel in DFW on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

"You don't agree that sugars induce growth"- give it a try, dried molasses is generally soy meal coated with molasses. It's for the unknown microbes, not the plant.

Very interesting you bring up voles, you have so much wood and you can grow blueberries? that your nitrogen applications probably don't severely interrupt the milieu of the soil. So, anyways, I am experimenting with getting away with heavy mulch and relying more on shade to keep things cool here in Dallas. Since it rains a lot of times less than an inch here, the clay never gets wet underneath and being an expansive type, will contract and become hydrophobic. So, after years of using mulches, I'm noticing voles everywhere so I haven't put one down in two years. A proper soaking of west of the mississippi clay down here will last for ten days or more in a hundred degree heat. If you induce deep roots, the top few inches of the clay if it's shaded somewhat by grass, or what have you, will insulate itself to a good degree.

Mike
johnw
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by johnw »

Friend in Z6b grows P. vivax as shown in this picture.

He asks if Phyllostachys vivax 'Huangwhenzhu' is hardier than straight vivax. No idea as I assumed it was hopeless here due to its brittleness. He has had no damage on it and he experiences a lot of freezing rain.

So the question is: Is Huangwenzhu the hardiest/hardier vivax form?
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Phyllostachys vivax  winter 2013 (2).jpg
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
Alan_L
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Alan_L »

How old is the planting? How about size? From what I've read others posting here, it's the bigger culms of vivax that take the most damage (if I remember correctly). Maybe his hasn't gotten to that size yet?
johnw
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by johnw »

Looks to be about 8ft to me.

He said last year he gave away 40 rhizomes so must have been planted for a few years.

re: breakage Your right, I think Markj said it's the top 1/3 of the tallest culms that snap well out of reach.

johnw
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
Mackel in DFW
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Mackel in DFW »

I don't know what it is but vivax stays the darkest green here in Dallas, and can go long periods when it's really hot and not complain too much. We tend to get a little droughty here during the summer, I'll just say it's a tough bamboo hot-weather-wise, I don't know if it'll shine in zone 6. I've never seen it anywhere here except in our back yard, but have observed it's fast upsize, fat culms, three to six foot upsize each year. Ours will be in it's fourth year during shooting time this spring. Haven't fertilized it with anything again this year. However, we never let it completely dry out, either, probably soaked it really good a half dozen times this summer, we just let the hose run slowly overnight. Sometimes it'll stay over a hundred here in Dallas for over a month or two, this is about the toughest phyllostachys in the yard along with perhaps bambusoides "slender crookstem" a close second. Perhaps vivax is tough against dessication in the winter, as well, it is in the summer. Well, I hope it does well for all of y'all further north. It's a fun boo to watch from the get go. M
Alan_L
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by Alan_L »

Mackel: I wonder if the thinner culm walls has anything to do with the (relative) drought-resistance? Thinner walls means less "plumbing" to fill with fluids? Not sure if that makes any sense. :)
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Re: Potential of phyllostachys vivax in zone 6

Post by johnw »

Alan - But also smaller pipes to get to the top floor.
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
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