Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa'

Roy · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:24 am

I recommend that the name of Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa' be divorced because of irreconcilable differences between these 2 opposites. (In the 2008 ABS Source List)

I objected at the wedding of these 2, but to no avail, the uniting of the 2 went forward. Unless someone, after looking at the pictures in the gallery, can come up with a better name, I think something along the lines of what was used before would be better than what we have now. What was previously used (to the best of my recollection) was:

Bambusa ventricosa 'Buddha's Belly'

Anybody got something better?

Bamboo Outlaw · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:51 am

I did and still do use the old name despite the fact some belly and some don't and some revert.

needmore · **Posted:** Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:18 pm

Why not just Bambusa ventricosa? Then Bambusa ventricosa 'Kimmei' for the yellow/green form?

BTW - Does the Kimmei ever really turn yellow with green stripes? The ones I've seen are more light green with green stripes and some pretty heavily cream striped leaves.

Roy · **Posted:** Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:34 am

needmore wrote:

Why not just Bambusa ventricosa? Then Bambusa ventricosa 'Kimmei' for the yellow/green form?

As long as we get the "tuldoides" out of it, that's fine with me. Reminds me of another conundrum: "How does one get "Dick" out of "Richard"! Makes no sense.

Then the 'Kimmei' would fit nicely. And this description should be in both of them concerning the ventricosing or bellying of the culms:

It becomes a dwarf with swollen internodes when grown in pots under dry conditions. In the ground it reverts to a giant with zigzag culms and branches.

And if nursery people would quit calling the green form of B. ventricosa "Hardy Buddha's Belly" and then calling B. vulgaris 'Wamin' "Tropical Buddha's Belly", that would go a long way in cutting out some of the confusing between the 2----Wamin and Buddha's Belly. They are both tropical bamboos.

Wamin compressed nodes are more orbital, where as the B. ventricosa is more bellying over to one side.

Quote:

BTW - Does the Kimmei ever really turn yellow with green stripes? The ones I've seen are more light green with green stripes and some pretty heavily cream striped leaves.

When my B. v. 'Kimmei' shoots come up, they are a lime green with underlying darker green stripes. As they harden off, get some sun, or age, then they turn yellow with green stripes.

needmore · **Posted:** Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:53 am

Roy wrote:

When my B. v. 'Kimmei' shoots come up, they are a lime green with underlying darker green stripes. As they harden off, get some sun, or age, then they turn yellow with green stripes.

Do you think that they turn the strong yellow that is generally implied with a 'Kimmei' moniker or would Bambusa ventricosa 'Greenstripe' be more accurate?

I actually thought that the bellying described in the description rather than the species name might be preferable, such as you describe above.

Roy · **Posted:** Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:26 am

needmore wrote:

Roy wrote:

When my B. v. 'Kimmei' shoots come up, they are a lime green with underlying darker green stripes. As they harden off, get some sun, or age, then they turn yellow with green stripes.

Do you think that they turn the strong yellow that is generally implied with a 'Kimmei' moniker or would Bambusa ventricosa 'Greenstripe' be more accurate?

When I think of 'Greenstripe', then I think of B. doli. 'Greenstripe' and I would have to say that the B. v. 'Kimmei' matures to a deeper yellow than does the B. doli 'Greenstripe'. My B. doli. 'Greenstripe' comes up with a blue culm look, then turns lime green, then later a light yellow with green stripes. I had a customer at my house this past weekend and he thought I had 3 different bamboos planted together to make one clump. Looks like the one below.

Quote:

I actually thought that the bellying described in the description rather than the species name might be preferable, such as you describe above.

Well, when you have a great idea, I like to run with it. :lol:

Bambusa dolichomerithalla 'Green stripe'

Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa Kimmei
Lime green culms turning to a darker yellow with green stripes

Bamboo Outlaw · **Posted:** Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:10 am

We are using Bambusa ventricosa "Buddha Belly" and Bambusa ventricosa "Kimmei" and stateing the two forms as 'bellying' and 'giant' with a description of the growth habit.

Chris S · **Posted:** Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:29 pm

The Flora of China project showed in 2006 that Bambusa ventricosa is distinct from Bambusa tuldoides growing in China. Prof Xia convinced me that the treatment of these as the same species in much of the recent Asian literature had been incorrect. This meant that experts from Singapore, Malaysia & Hong Kong were all somehow way off the mark, despite being quite familiar with these plants.

There remained a suspicion that cultivated plants in the US might be misidentified, as Soderstrom & Edelman of the Smithsonian had also been convinced that the plants growing as B. ventricosa and B. tuldoides were the same species. However, close-up photos posted on the internet have confirmed that this is not the case. The US plants are properly identified, and the photos show sufficient characters for them to be considered different species. Culm sheath ligule fimbriation, extent of internode wax and erectness of culms can all be seen to differ substantially.

There is no longer any need to place B. ventricosa within B. tuldoides. Roy Rogers has suggested that the next Source List should separate them, and this seems reasonable on the basis of the evidence we now have available.

Apologies are due for the Source List getting it wrong. However, we have to follow the principle of 'evidence-based decisions'. In the past, the evidence had only been whatever was published in the literature. When that evidence was all wrong, it was still hard to dispute it. Now, thanks largely to this website, we have another source of good evidence. This collection of photos is backing up the more subjective evidence of our own eyes, and so a big thank you to the management of the website, the ABS for supporting it, and the members who have supplied photos.

Roy · **Posted:** Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:16 pm

Chris S wrote:

The Flora of China project showed in 2006 that Bambusa ventricosa is distinct from Bambusa tuldoides growing in China. Prof Xia convinced me that the treatment of these as the same species in much of the recent Asian literature had been incorrect. This meant that experts from Singapore, Malaysia & Hong Kong were all somehow way off the mark, despite being quite familiar with these plants.

There remained a suspicion that cultivated plants in the US might be misidentified, as Soderstrom & Edelman of the Smithsonian had also been convinced that the plants growing as B. ventricosa and B. tuldoides were the same species. However, close-up photos posted on the internet have confirmed that this is not the case. The US plants are properly identified, and the photos show sufficient characters for them to be considered different species. Culm sheath ligule fimbriation, extent of internode wax and erectness of culms can all be seen to differ substantially.

There is no longer any need to place B. ventricosa within B. tuldoides. Roy Rogers has suggested that the next Source List should separate them, and this seems reasonable on the basis of the evidence we now have available.

Apologies are due for the Source List getting it wrong. However, we have to follow the principle of 'evidence-based decisions'. In the past, the evidence had only been whatever was published in the literature. When that evidence was all wrong, it was still hard to dispute it. Now, thanks largely to this website, we have another source of good evidence. This collection of photos is backing up the more subjective evidence of our own eyes, and so a big thank you to the management of the website, the ABS for supporting it, and the members who have supplied photos.

YEA FOR BAMBOOWEB.INFO! :wav:

More Identification Issues Will Be Forthcoming!

Roy · **Posted:** Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:10 pm

Quote:

It becomes a dwarf with swollen internodes when grown in pots under dry conditions. In the ground it reverts to a giant with zigzag culms and branches. Sometimes considered a separate species.

I suggest replacing "Sometimes considered a separate species" with "Tolerates wet feet".

See these links for verification:

http://www.jmbamboo.com/buddhabelly.htm
http://bambooweb.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p=21720#21720

Anybody have any experiences with the "Kimmei" version and tolerating wet feet conditions?

mike best · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:23 pm

I have even a better picture of Bambusa ventricosa underwater right beside a bald cyprus tree but still looking for it. If I find it I will post it.

VISUALLY speaking, the 'bellying' type and 'giant' type to me do not look like they are the same plant at all. Now scientifically speaking, I can't say a word cause I don't know.

I have not found this to be true, (must be another way to make them do this?): "It becomes a dwarf with swollen internodes when grown in pots under dry conditions. In the ground it reverts to a giant with zigzag culms and branches."

After 4 years of perfect growing conditions, under auto watering (my 6 plants in the ground fro Homestead, FL), 'bellying' type, is still growing fast a still 'bellying' and seems to me will never revert to 'giant' .

At Kanapaha Botanical Gardens in Gainesville FL, I saw one at the entrance 3 years ago and I bet you it had been there a while and I bet you it is still there and still 'bellying'. I am not being scientific at all here but would be interesting to see if my far flung reaction is correct.

And as you might guess, I have many 'giant' type in pots for years that have not been water and are sometimes neglected because I have not sold or gave them away, many stressed out with mealy bug, and they do not belly at all, they continue to grow to giant size.

Roy · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:50 pm

I took a pot of "bellying" B. ventricosa and planted it in the ground. If took a few years before it took off, but then I started getting big culms without any bellying.

I had a customer who bought some B. ventricosa 'Kimmei' from me so that he could form a giant screen. He complained for about 5 years that all it did was stay short and form bellies. I saw him recently and he said that it had stopped bellying and was growing large and tall culms.

It is an amazing plant. Tolerates wet feet, tolerates dry conditions, forms bellies, makes a giant screen, and the plant is tough as hell.

mike best · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:52 pm

Actually I would think 'Ventricosa' ability to tolerate long standing water is very interesting maybe with some unexpected results that could prove wide spreading. Seems this should have been noted along time ago, and knowing the water tolerances of other boos might be useful.

Just one example holding back soil erosion along a berm or river as I have noticed 'Ventricosa' sends out a think long mass of tiny roots (a matting web of a millions tight roots the diameter of a thread) that can spread far outside of its canopy even up into any pots that one might sit on the ground nearby.....oh know, what would the army core of engineers do with this....

Roy · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:15 pm

mike best wrote:

...

And as you might guess, I have many 'giant' type in pots for years that have not been water and are sometimes neglected because I have not sold or gave them away, many stressed out with mealy bug, and they do not belly at all, they continue to grow to giant size.

Mike,

The way I get my B. v. to belly in a pot is to water the heck out of it. Semi-straight culms will come up until the pot starts getting filled with roots (maybe use the term "root bound") and then the subsequent culms will come up with bellies.

mike best · **Posted:** Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:17 pm

Ah, I did not know that, I might try it one day. That certainly shows it to be the same species.

I think I have heard it said before and now I say it:

"B. ventricosa is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get".

I think what you said Roy should be added to the 2008 ABS Source List as it is a good description of the B. ventricosa that I know:

"...amazing plant. Tolerates wet feet, tolerates dry conditions, forms bellies, makes a giant screen, and the plant is tough as hell".

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Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa'

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