Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

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Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

I'm going out on a limb here.

Much has been said about the hardiness of aureosulcata. Well I visited a friend's Alata yesterday in the Annapolis Valley. He told me that his lows had been around -12c to date and there was no extended (for more than an hour or so) severe weather, no low humidity and no wind. No damage was apparent. However he had one night recently to -18c, a flash cold with no wind, good humidity and by the next afternoon it was above freezing.

He showed me some outer smaller canes that were exhibiting rolled leaves that were slightly silvery. I have never seen damaged Phyllo leaves like this and he assured me they will drop.

So if these were not late culms then we can posit a theory that this species comes from an area where -18c would rarely if ever be seen. So my guess is that area, whever it might be, would - worse case scenario - see maybe -15c in a bad winter and -10c in a regular winter. My guess is not from an elevation above 3000m.

So now we -18c causes damage here to one of the hardiest Phyllos. Will -17c, however brief, do the same?

We've just been to -12 so I will check the local P. aureosulcata Aureocaulis and straight aureosulcata tomorrow.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by Leo S »

My location is between Milwaukee and Chicago, near the Illinois-Wisconsin border, within a few miles of Lake Michigan.

I am growing 4 cultivars of Phyllo. aureosulcata, the plain type form of aureosulcata is the one I've grown the longest, over 30 years, and it is incredibly root hardy. Back before global warming changed my growing zone from 4b to 5b, we had a week where day time highs did not rise above 0F (-18 C) and the coldest night of that sub zero deep freeze was -25 F (-32 C). I had complete top kill of the very young, 2 year old planting. But new shoots sprouted in spring, they did top out shorter than the previous year, but surviving -25 F (-32 C) with minimal mulch is quite a feat.

Subsequent years I added aureosucata var aureocaulis (my favorite), Harbin Inversa, and Spectabilis to the mix. All seem equally hardy as the type form of the species.

Foliage die back is interesting. I can't always predict how the foliage will do. In sub zero weather the leaves will curl, droop and look silver in color, but often they flatten out and return to normal green color when the weather warms. But oddly, I have lost significant numbers of leaves when the winter was above 0F (-18 C) all winter. It seems to be related to wind and sun more so than actual temperatures. This last decade I rarely have more than 10% of the foliage killed off in winter. A spring clean up makes the grove look quite nice again. Routinely, in my zone 5b, with no mulching and no fertilizer input, I get 12 to 20 foot tall culms, depending on the amount of rain we have in spring. I have had single culms get taller, to 28 feet, but the majority will be in the 12 to 20 ft range.

Once a planting is established, it seems to be completely immune to cold in terms of rhizome hardiness. Always coming back in the spring. Even though the foliage can look beat up in spring, a little grove grooming, and it is beautiful again. I think its one of the better species for overall hardiness.

I also like Phyllostachys atrovaginata for its performance in zone 5. The foliage survives winter in very clean condition. We have not had the cold to truly test this species here, but it seems to be at least as good if not better than aureosulcata for leaf retention over winter.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

Leo - Thanks for that information on the aureosulcatas. Very enlightening. Here oftentimes the worst part of winter is late March when temps are in the -3 to +6/7 range and the frost takes ages to leave the ground, that's when you can be sure that sun will come out blazing.

I'll keep you posted of events here after this test winter.

Your rating of P. atrovaginata is encouraging.

+9c and dropping. Ground bare, bulb shoots visible.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

I can say i havnt noticed any damage on my alata at -18C and I can say its seen lower temps (not by much) at few times at least.


Just my opinion on your theory. I could understand your thinking if areosulcata was from a limited range (like say, wellomi pine), because then that area would experience temps different, then say, a mile away in some cases. My understanding is that areosulcata has a relatively large range in china, which means it would be exposed to a wide range of temps (again relative) across its range.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

canadianplant wrote:I can say i havnt noticed any damage on my alata at -18C and I can say its seen lower temps (not by much) at few times at least.

My understanding is that areosulcata has a relatively large range in china, which means it would be exposed to a wide range of temps (again relative) across its range.
Just wondering, was that -18c with the plant standing up unprotected in the weather?

From The Compendium Of Chinese Bamboo I get the distinct impression that these localities mentioned for the Phyllos are the areas where they are grown are not where they were originally native. Yesterday I was googling and saw reference to a Botanic Garden in what was described as extremely cold Lanzhou in Gansu. Looking at the weather data for Lanzhou the record low is -21c, by no means a bamboo growing area as it is frightfully dry but that low was a shock. Somewhere between Beijing and Shenyang the climate must get Canadian and that's well north of the Phyllo-growing areas of which Beijing seems to be the limit.

If anyone can cite a know area with alititude where a Phyllo species - really tender ones aside - is native I'd love to hear about it. I'll ask a plant hunting friend who has been to China countless times, he's seen lots of Fargesias and Borindas but no mention of Phyllos.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

Yes John , that was standing, unprotected. I cannot tell you exactly the temp, I may have written down that low at one point but i can say it was around -20C for sure. I can also say its taken -16C with -25C windchills while im letting it chill out before burying it with the slightest amount of burn on a few leaf tips.

As far as Ive read the native range of areosulcata is south east china/some south west. im hoping I can find it. Here is what i found (oddly enough on a 3 year old forum post!)

"Genus: Phyllostachys
Family: Poaceae (alt. Gramineae) subfamily: Bambusoideae tribe: Bambuseae.
Nomen number: 28148
Place of publication: J. Washington Acad. Sci. 35:282. 1945
Name verified on: 22-Mar-2004 by ARS Systematic Botanists. Last updated: 03-Feb-2010

Common names:

* stake-and-forage bamboo (Source: AH USDA 114:18. 1957) – English
* yellow-groove bamboo (Source: Hortus 3 ) – English
* huangcaozhu (Source: Bamboo World ) – Transcribed Chinese
* rauher gelbrinnen-bambus (Source: Bamboo World ) – German"
sou

Missouri botanical gardens says natie to the north west (beijing area?)

http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/ ... lcata.aspx

I guess the problem is figuring out native range and cultivated range. I have a feeling the eastern mountains, and up a bit in the south west in the mountains according to some data.


EDIT - I took a look at my weather data, and tried to match up the dates i covered my alata (as posted on forums), to the temp data. It seems that it was hit with -18C multiple times over the now 3 seasons ive had it. I do protect them when the temps drop around -20C, but I cant always get to them.

IMO -18C is where damage starts, and anything under that will be leaf/bud/top kill. I think the low hardiness ratings are probably for the roots. Still, on that note, roots being able to survive say, -25C down to -30C (well say no snow cover, and snow cover respectively) would suggest that its possible it was/is native to an area where every few years the plants get knocked down to the ground by "colder than average" low temp. IF areosilcata wasnt adapted to severe cold, longish period of cold, and dying back, I wouldnt be able to get away with it up here


EDIT EDIT - Turns out phyllostachys grow roughly 2000 feet up to 6600 according to the us forestry service
http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plan ... r/all.html

"Elevation: In China, golden bamboo stands occur at elevations of up to 3,300 feet (1,000 m) in the southeast and up to 6,600 feet (2,000 m) in the southwest [13,51]. As of 2009, elevation tolerances for golden bamboo were not reported for the United States."
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by tncry »

That's great info Leo. Not many people have been growing Phyllostachys in an area as cold as you for that amount of time. Thanks for sharing. I'm growing Phyllostachys in 4b and 5b locations. They are still young but your results help with expectations. Did or do you protect your plants when they are young?
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by stevelau1911 »

-17C appears to be a very good temperature that separates the hardy from the not hardy.

A few hours at that temperature doesn't really touch the species that are hardier than aureosulcata, and it causes minimal leaf burn for aureosulcata. This will cause moderate leaf burn on less hardy species such as dulcis and decora. It will burn most of the leaves off the least hardy phyllostachys, but I doubt it is cold enough to fry leaf buds or cause top kill.

In another week, there should be a gradual warming trend so any further leaf burn is becoming unlikely.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by needmore »

stevelau1911 wrote:-17C appears to be a very good temperature that separates the hardy from the not hardy.

A few hours at that temperature doesn't really touch the species that are hardier than aureosulcata, and it causes minimal leaf burn for aureosulcata. This will cause moderate leaf burn on less hardy species such as dulcis and decora. It will burn most of the leaves off the least hardy phyllostachys, but I doubt it is cold enough to fry leaf buds or cause top kill.

In another week, there should be a gradual warming trend so any further leaf burn is becoming unlikely.
-17C is cold enough to cause leaf bud damage & top kill on many Phy's
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

Brad - If -17c damages most Phyllos that makes damage likely in a Z7 winter right? The general hardiness rating then should be Z7b or even Z8a for the hardiest species.

I was in the Annapolis Valley today and saw the arcanas that had one night of -18c and one night of -20 c, the two oldest plants are partially fried and the others are fully fried. The Alata I did not see today. A bissetii in the outer suburbs here saw -18c and it is 50% burnt, it's only been in the ground since May but is in a four-sided courtyard thast gets no wind whatsoever. The local aureosulcatas have a some suspicious leaves after -17c in north end Halifax.

I have yet to see documented evidence that Phyllos is or was ever native in areas colder than Z7 (Z7 includes Beijing, so north of it). Does McClure mention native areas?

Gentiana acaulis in flower here today, how crazy is that. This bud was fully extended, showing colour and about to open on the 14th of January just before the cold snap struck. We were stunned to see it open today.

Now we are snowless and back to double digit lows and 6 more weeks of winter ahead. The snow will come when we are frozen solid, lovely climate. Now the damage begins in earnest.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

Phyllostachys arcana cook-a-thon here. Pix not so sharp as the wind was howling. This species was in the top ten list of bamboos for Beijing. :roll:
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by stevelau1911 »

-17C is cold enough to cause leaf bud damage & top kill on many Phy's
I should have mentioned that I meant the hardier ones that are rated for zone 6 or better, not the ones like aurea, bambusoides, and viridis that typically rate for zone 7.

John, it doesn't look like that arcana is all that hardy if it gets fried that much at only -18C however they look still very small with perhaps only 3 seasons of growth from 1 gallon sized divisions so when they get closer to mature size, they may handle a temperature like this pretty easily. Seeing how there are multiples, it would have been interesting to tarp one of them to see if there is a significant difference in the size of the shoots for the following spring.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

As far as I know Mclure mentioned the native areas. Most phyllos seem to be south east or south west china, over lapping some of the fargesia range it seems. and it seems they go up the mountain sides around 6600 feet (at least aurea, which isnt the hardiest).

Also, this comes to mind. Im pretty sure some most fargesia in cultivation are from divisions of one or 2 plants in collections right? If the same is even half true for phyllos, is it fair for us to base hardiness off of one clone, when the odds are there are hardier populations spread out in china?

Im also wondering if temps in NA make any difference. An example would be Brad area. Your temps can swing pretty heavy going into winter. They can drop with in a day from what ive seen. In my area winters usually happen with a slow temperature drop over a few months, giving plants time to harden off. When the temps drop, they stay low, generally speaking. As gardeners we are aware that plants need time to harden off, so maybe these temp swings weve all been having is affecting the hardiness (especially the record highs, then deep lows and back to high temps you have been having in NS John).

I guess what im saying is I think its much more complicated then saying "it shows damage here at -18, therefore its fair to speculate thats the lowest temp it sees in its native zone". Also, im assuming why you posted, since there isnt much hard evidence to base any hardiness rating on (top kill at least). As you mentioned it gets more skewed when you think of root hardiness. If the alatas natural area only gets down to -18C (and assuming leaf and snow cover), then why would the roots be that much hardier, aside from the usual reasons (soil, snow cover, survival etc)?

IF you want, Im willing to take some legitimate data this year in order to see. Im probably the only one on the site who has the range of temps to really test it. That ontario site posted is promising I must say, but I can get a good 15 or 20C colder then down there based on records.

Either way, Im willing to put this to the test this winter if you wish. I will admit most of my "evidence" is anecdotal, but at this point Ill say mine has been hit with -18C multiple times, and more than likely slightly lower with very minimal damage, or none that I noticed in spring.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by needmore »

For 4-5 years I had a window on my computer that displayed my weather and that of Beijing, it was uncanny how often they nearly matched. Seasons seem similar, we might have spring up-temp spikes more often. There it might be hotter at times, here a little colder at times but overall very similar.

In the past 11 years I've been able to make observations of 'even' weather - ignoring years with sudden extreme changes at the beginning of winter, and what I have seen is that most Phy seem to be fine to -15C, between -15C & -18C there is a big difference here. I think that if you have a smooth'sih transition into frosty/freezing temps the bamboo goes dormant'ish and a BRIEF warm up down the road followed by a cool back is not such a big factor once the initial 'its winter now' message has been received - for sure a prolonged warm up then a cool down will be very problematic, such as Europe last winter. Latitude is surely also a big factor, a friend from zone 8 upstate Washington kept being amazed at how 'high' and intense the sun was here in January when he visited, so my winter bamboos get more sun dried than north of here and that is surely impactful as well. So temperature 'ratings' must be adjusted to other local factors and when looking at China there is elevation as a local factor, along with day/nite temp swings soil composition etc.

What we are really talking about is not cold exposure, its dessication right? We need a dessicantometer system...
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

Good point about desiccation. There is more than likely difference between winter winds in NS, where I am, and down in Indiana compared to the mountians, where most phyllostachys are native (if im not mistaken). Ive been up in the rockies in the winter, and there are sharp contrasts between temps and general conditions between each valley, north and south facing slopes, and wide open plateau. In banff it was freezing and up in lake louise I was sweating.

I think we can agree that length of cold, temp and amount of windchill all can play a factor in hardiness, as well as if your area has odd freeze thaw cycles during the winter. Up in the mountains one can assume it gets buried in snow each winter as well.

Needmore - When I mentioned your temp spikes, I meant during the transition from summer/fall/winter. Its my understanding that you usually dont have a slow transition, rather a sharp one (again please correct me if im wrong).
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