Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

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johnw
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

As iowa said there's nothing like frozen ground and a good dry wind to fry everything in its path. Frost takes weeks to leave the ground here so March & April can be deadly.

Once we had a long stretch of mild damp foggy weather throughout the province. It lasted for months until one day in August when the sun came out. All was fine on the coast but inland the humidty dropped precipitously and a wind started to blow. I was there the next day and many of the Japanese maples and especially the threadleaf varieties were incinerated. They eventually re-flushed. I wonder how a bamboo would have reacted if at all?

canadianplant - So much misinformation on the internet though eh? Back in the early 70's an elderly friend asked me if I could find her "the hardy" bamboo. I was stunned to think that a bamboo would be remotely hardy here but I went on the hunt for her. Information was zero and what was out there was incredibly confusing. About the same time I landed a copy of Hillier's Manual of Trees and Shrubs - the famous 1974 edition. I got the idea nitida must be the one but one book said Arundinaria nitida, the next Sinarundinaria nitida, Semiarundinaria nitida, Sinoarundianria nitida and there was no way of telling if they were the same plant. Then I found a copy of McClure at the University here. Still I had no idea if it were hardy and where to get it. By luck a friend in TO told me he had a bamboo and so he sent me a piece. The next big event was an article in Horticulture on Hardy Bamboo in the late 70's (I still have it - and in retrospect I wonder how accurate it was - those were cold years), by or about a Robert Lester in NYC who had a bamboo plantation in New England. The article was a bit confusing so I phoned him up and learned more in 2 hours than I had in the previous years. Now the problem is there is so much info out there it's hard to tell what's fact and what's fiction. Meanwhile my friend had died and she never got that bamboo but she sure got me interested.

re: evolution Hardy Bamboos must be very backward in this regard, that is to say 1/100 as adaptive as a common perennial that flowers once a year.
johnw coastal Nova Scotia
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by stevelau1911 »

I was just wondering, where did the outrageous hardiness ratings such as phyllostachys nuda for -20F, vivax huangwenzhu for -9F, and anderson moso for -5F come from?

One pattern that I have noticed is that moso growers particularly in the mid Atlantic and Southeast almost never have winter damage even with single digit winter lows in the past few winters. Could it be that all species of bamboos are generally hardier in a climate that has overall more humidity, precipitation, and warm temperatures? I'm guessing some of these temperature ratings must have originated from the mid Atlantic region where it is cold enough to reach subzero temperatures, but there is a good enough climate so that it doesn't even matter.

This guy on the bamboocraft forum happens to be in southern PA in a zone 5b with extremes, maybe reaching even a bit below the temperatures I typically see. His nuda and vivax don't appear to be bothered too much in his pictures. Hopefully he shows an update for 2013 because I want to see if vivax can really thrive below zone 7.
http://www.bamboo-craft.net/forums/show ... a69&t=2671


I think it would make sense for bamboos to be the least hardy in regions such as Nevada, New Mexico, and any areas where there are frequent droughts over summer, low humidity, little or no snow, and high winds that typically accompany the temperature extremes. This really makes it difficult to determine the true temperature hardiness of all the species. The person who claimed -20F for nuda may have actually witnessed it themselves.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

Steve - Or is it just that the cold is more protracted in the north and short-lived in the south?

I look at the calendar and we can count up at least 6 more weeks of this cold. Maybe not bitter cold but below freezing temps for sure with little respite..
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by stevelau1911 »

You are also in the Northeast portion of the North American continent so if it is supposed to be cooler than average for the next 2 months here, the same should apply to you. I really don't care if we have cold weather all the way through the end of April because that means that nothing will come up too soon.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

Steve - I don't believe a word the weather people say more than 2-3 days ahead. Just a month ago we were the only area in North American to have an above average temp winter!

On Sunday the Weather network was saying on their website "snowfall warning in effect - expect up to 40cm in Halifax". It was raining outside. Their TV channel at the same time was saying "extended freezing rain warning in effect - expect freezing rain for the overnight period." Shortly thereafter the rain had stopped. Granted this is a notoriously difficult place to predict the weather but it seems the left hand does not know what the right is doing.

Cheers from NS - described as the meteorological exhaust pipe of North American.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

John - I have actually found a lack of information when it comes to some plants, bamboo especially. Its confusing, and took me years to get the information I know now. Im lucky enough to be able to subjectively scour infomation and still have troubles getting information. You ever look up the "john pear" from University of sask?? Hell, even a popular plum like toka? Ive spent months looking for good information on the above mentioned, and its harder then one would think.

I ordered some Fargesia spathacea seeds, and decided to get some info about it, seeing as it was new to me. It took me 2 months of reading, and ended up learning the ins and outs of bamboo taxonomy. In that search I learned how bad and unreliable it is. IF we cant even group the bamboos right how can we expect to get proper hardiness ratings?

Ya know, from what ive heard you say, im sortve in the same position you were in in the 70s :P

Steve - My zone 4, is not the same as zone 4 say, in vermont. Which also isnt the same as a zone 4 up in the southern rockies. Wind, length of winter, dry.moist wind, reliable snow cover, angle of the sun, winter temp swings and rainfall all play into plant survivability.

As far as the "outrageous" hardiness ratings. I dont think they are wrong persay. If anything there is a "but" missing there :P Its this simple. I bought my alata. It gets bent down to the ground mulched and tarped. I go through winter, and see -37C at the airport (it really did get down that low there, but just under -30C in my yard!) Not knowing much about hardiness ratings, I could say my bamboo is hardy to -37C. I think the ratings are based on the plants survival, more specifically the roots.

So now we go back to Johns point about rhodies. Sure they might survive -30C, and half die back, and not fully recover, BUT IT SURVIVED RIGHT SO THAT MUST BE ITS HARDINESS RATING! When you think that its supposed to be evergreen, and flower in spring, in this situation it isnt either, so is that really a reliable hardiness rating? Ive seen people have Cordyline regrow from the roots in -25C, but it was mulched. Then there are some situations like when I had my 4 oclock flowers "sprout back". They are a zone 7 plant, and I was amazed that theyd come back. Then I realized they seeded.

I still think bamboo may be a slightly different case. Bamboo generally will regrow from the roots, with little negative effect, besides loosing the hight. Sure it isnt evergreen, but the die back is a different situation then rhodies. I also am thinking of ground cover bamboo, whos hardiness rating seems to be based on the fact that you can mow it down every year, so they get good ratings.

Anyways, the problem is possibly people using temperatures in which their plant survives in general, not survives as it theoretically should. Thats why you see nuda at -20F, and alata at -32c. Even that, you have to ask a ton of questions: How long at that temp? Were they mulched or bent down? How deep was the snow? How were the temps in late summer/fall? What is the duration of cold in a "normal" winter? How deep are the windchills?


John - Re last post - Me and paul were discussing how accurate (relatively speaking) the long term models have been from environment canada. For those intersted, here is the recent 3 month prediction, which shows NS and steves area as above average:

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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by foxd »

Perhaps I should clarify, I do not expect using Windchill to be perfect, just better than using temperature alone. Thinking about how the curves work, even without special formula for bamboo it would still be a better match than using just temperature.

I would expect epigenisis to occur in bamboo since it is just such an incredibly useful mechanism for quickly adapting to new environments.

I have a few plants that are growing way outside their Hardiness Zone and survivng the Winter. It will be interesting to see if these plants will not only continue to survive, but to prosper. The Buddha Belly Bamboo is one of my ongoing experiments and it actually tried to size up last year. :shock:
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

canadianplant - re: hardy rhodos

Has Paul told you about R. brachycvarpum Tigertsedtii? It has flowered after -49c in Finland on several ocassions. If you have acid soil and you're interested I can direct you to a good source of valid seed.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

-49C on SEVERAL occasions :shock: I have 2 rhodos so far, Helikkii and a PJM elite. My soil is neutral I believe, but I can amend it pretty easy. You can PM he the source if you like. Thanks!
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by Leo S »

at risk of throwing a bomb. But frankly guys, I think you are getting over-wrought about hardiness. First, think about it.
1.) no leaf on a phylostachys survives much more than 14 months. Who cares if all the leaves on a culm die as long as the culm can push out a new set of leaves in spring. Brown leaves are no big deal. They look bad, but if the culm lives, no problem. Hardiness should be define by 2 terms only. Culm hardiness, and rhizome hardiness.
All the leaves get replaced annually in Phyllostachys. Not true for Indocalmus and Sasa.

2) enen if you have total culm death, as long as the rhizomes are able to push up new culms in spring, You don't have to replant the bamboo. If you bamboo can survive a 10 year period, say with complte top kill three out of ten years, guess what, its hardy enough to persist. At the end of the first ten years of my planting it had gone from one culm to over 75 culms, and from an average of 6 feet to an average of 10 feet. With the milder winters we've had lately now my planting is reularly topping 15 feet with the occasional culm to 24 feet.I had -15 one night this winter and a lot of leaf burn, but no dead culms.thats hardy in my book..

3.)location is everything. Other plantings in my yard have fared equal, some better and a few for no reason other than the site I put it in, did much worse. Winter sun and exposure seem to make a big difference for top hardiness. Culm death is much more common on the sites with winter sun than sites that get shade in winter.it may not be just the sun, these sites get more wind too.

summary
think about it. For a genus that replaces its leaves annually, are a few dead leaves in winter really the right thing to worry about?
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by stevelau1911 »

In the long run, it probably doesn't matter especially in zone 6 and above where it's not that common for an established hardy species to completely top kill, and generally the trend is towards more and more energy each year. The one reason why I think it's good to have leaves is for photosynthesis in the spring, and so energy doesn't have to get shared with releafing of old culms. The leaves themselves probably don't carry that much stored energy in comparison to the whole plant, but it requires a decent amount of it to re-leaf, and there's a lot of new energy that can be gained with a grove in the spring that doesn't get leaf burned at all.

24ft does sound very impressive for zone 5. What species produced that for you? I'm interested in knowing about the potential bamboo has in zone 5.

So far atrovaginata looks like it has a chance of approaching 20ft for me, but it has so many shoots this spring so I'm not sure if this energy share will hinder the increase in height. I've seen in my region, zone 6 a/b a phyllostachys, likely vivax, or AGP reach about 35-40ft in only about 100 square ft of space with soda can diameter culms(2.6 inches).

I know in zone 7b or so down in Maryland, P dulcis, and henon can get all the way to the 3.7 inch range, up to around 45ft with no fertilization so bamboos can get pretty big over time.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

A pine tree is evergreen, and replaces a good portion of its needles in spring, but that doesnt mean id concider it hardy here if all the needles drop constantly. John seemed to be making the point, that saying alata is hardy to zone 5, will make people assume that means it will survive all around, not with some burn, or top kill, or just roots surviving.

I think the best example i can think of would be F carica (edible fig). There are types called "Chicago hardy" or "brown turkey" that are rated at zone 6. The thing is, this doesnt mean the tree can grow outside without dieback in zone 6, it means it will survive to the snowline, or the roots will shoot. I wont have a nice big 12 foot fig tree in zone 5 or 6. It just gets confusing.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by needmore »

Leo, I think that a somewhat reliable hardiness indicator can be helpful to people. If you have a limited amount of ground space and have a particular desire in terms of culm diameter or height then having a reference for what you might be able to expect in your climate can steer you to an appropriate species to try - but realistic expectations are key. Leaf damage and culm damage as you know limit mature culms sizes so leaves are important in that regard. From what I've seen with heavy leaf damage the subsequent culms will be less inclined to upsize even if those culms releaf fully so leaves are important if size is important to you. Also, lots of people want year-round privacy screens so winter defoliation is a consideration in that context.

For me, understanding the general hardiness of a given species suggests appropriate or inappropriate utility of that species. Having realistic expectations is the important thing though, and I think if you plant in marginal climates knowing that some years there will be winter ugliness and subsequent downsize then hardiness should be less meaningful.
Brad Salmon, zone 12B Kea'au, HI
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by johnw »

needmore wrote:Leo, I think that a somewhat reliable hardiness indicator can be helpful to people.
I think cp and Brad are quite correct. Even if realistic ratings are only for plant nuts like ourselves who are willing to try anything and push the limits. Brad probably has the closest ratings to be had. However if we want bamboos to go mainstream - as a landscaping staple - then a realistic "stay green all winter" raing is a must. Sure we are bound to get one of those damaging winters every 10-12 years and maybe homeowner can live with some brown leaves when it happens. I'd rather confidently use or recommend a Fargesia for a job than have a homeowner have to saw down and chip an entire grove every few years; in fact no way am I going to attempt to lay culms down for the winter or spend my time chipping huge groves - a pass withg the trimmer on viridi-striata sure but not the Phyllos.

How many other plants are rated as hardy to the point that only the roots are alive - perennials maybe but not broad-leaved evergreens.
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Re: Phyllostachys aureosulcata Alata hardiness.

Post by canadianplant »

I said it earlier on this thread I think, but I think there should be 2 ratings; One for it being evergreen, and one for root hardiness. It may seem confusing at first, but to me it would show the range the plant can have with some work. I for one dont mind bending and mulching my fargesia, but I havnt experienced this on any large grove, so I may be eating my joking of saying ill "use a bigger pile of leaves".

I guess the same would go for ultimate height. I cant expect my alata to reach 25 feet here, same with cooler climates generally speaking.....
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