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I posted this query in another thread, but got no response.

I've followed this "Sport Story" topic for a while, but have had no comment until now.

I was participating in a plant sale at the University of South Florida Botanical Garden this weekend and I talked with someone about my B. m. 'A. Karr' and how all of the A. karr seedlings are coming up green and none yellow with green stripes. He said that A. karr was a sport and that A. karr came about as a result of a green B. multiplex seeding up a shoot with yellow and green stripes as opposed to the normal green as the rest of the culms were in the clump. And that A. karr didn't come up as a seedling with yellow and green striped culms. I've never heard that before about A. karr. Anyone else heard of B. m. 'A. karr' being a sport?

If B.m. 'A. karr' was really a sport, then how did one sport get spread around the world so much and for such a long period of time? Conversely then, how come none of the various flowerings of 'A. Karr' are producing any yellow with green stripe seedlings? I have at least a thousand 'A. karr' seedlings and none of them are yellow with green stripes. Inquiring minds want to know.

I'll be interested to hear the answer....
if anyone knows it.

I don't, however, think that the coloration of 'A. Karr's seedlings has anything to offer as to whether it originated as a seedling or a sport. An interesting question in its own right, though it may pose.

Jeff aka mushroom dancer wrote:I'll be interested to hear the answer....
if anyone knows it.

I don't, however, think that the coloration of 'A. Karr's seedlings has anything to offer as to whether it originated as a seedling or a sport. An interesting question in its own right, though it may pose.

My conundrum is this. If it is a sport, then it is headed for extinction when it flowers, if all culms die, as they do a lot of times.

Secondly, if it came from seed, then when all divisions of it flower and maybe all culms die, then no more A. karr. Remember now that I don't know of anyone who is getting yellow with green stripes from any of the seeds produced by A. karr flowering.

My understanding is as follows:

Most variegation in bamboo is chimeral variegation. This means that the meristem is a mixture of groups of normal cells and groups of mutated cells. The condition arises because some of the meristematic cells mutate in a way that causes them to stop producing chloroplasts normally. It should not matter whether this mutation was present in the seed, or it occurs later as a "sport." The effect is the same. The variegation will not pass into the seedlings of the variegated plant, unless some of the mutated cells happen to compose the tissue that forms the ovules. Chimeral variegation can occur as a result of a one-time chance mutation in a plant, and it may never occur again, unless it happens because of a genetic predisposition that is present in some plants.

Although it can happen, most variegated plants do not breed true from seed. This appears to match with your observations of the non-variegated seedlings that you have. However, some variegated plants are genetically predisposed to undergo the mutation that causes variegation. While they could pass this predisposition for mutation on to their progeny, they would rarely pass along the mutation itself.

I have no information either way, but 'Alphonse Karr' could have originated long ago as either a seedling or a sport. It would not make any difference. As long as the plant waited long enough between flowering events, or did not die after flowering, it could be passed around the world.

If 'Alphonse Karr' does undergo a mass flowering, and it all dies, then the cultivar will disappear. If it does pass the tendency for mutation along, then some of its seedlings may mutate and produce a sport after a number of years. It is also possible that it will produce a "true" seedling or two if tens (or hundreds) of thousands of seedlings are grown.

The question is whether 'Alphonse Karr' has a genetic predisposition for chimeral variegation, or whether it is just another green B. multiplex that had a chance mutation.

Now that's the kind of answer I like to read. Thanks a BUNCH Glen!!!!

If you are ever in Deep South Texas, give me a call... I have about 100 more questions related to bamboo and other plants.

Glen,

Excellent post.

On my old clump of 'A. Karr', there is a one very small portion of the clump that is still alive and has about 2 very small, almost twig like, culms or branches that show the yellow with green stripes. I think I had better start babying that little piece and see if I can get it to come back and produce new yellow and green striped culms. I was able to do this with my B. tuldoides and now I have the old generation producing new plants and I have the new generation which I call B. tuldoides 'Millennium'.


Bambusa tuldoides 'Millennium'
<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... dling2.jpg" alt="Bambusa tuldoides ">

To clarify, most ALL of what gardeners think of as "variegation" is chimeral. There are the odd exceptions of the flowering maple cultivar whose variegation is virally caused. Mostly, we call virally infected plants with discoloration "sick". And then there are plants like clover, zonal geraniums and wild ginger which have multiple pigment tones, often in a chevron pattern. Some people call these "variegated", though I think its safe to say that most would not.

Here is a red clover displaying both "types" (if you want to call it that) of variegation. The normal colored leaves along the right edge of the picture are not chimeral:

<a><img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j141/ ... 0_3469.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

Some variegated (aka chimeral) plants come true from seed. Generally, the more irregular the variegation, the more likely it can be passed as the mutation is likely to pass through various cell layers, including the reproductive ones... Plants that have leaves with a nice gold edge around a green center, probably won't come true from seed. Plants with splotches extending through or up to the center of the leaf often will. This is because the layout of the variegation has to do with the preponderance of cell layers in various parts of the leaves... Generally, the middle of the leaf has to do with the sex cells. However, a plant with a color mutation confined to the sex cells would often go unnoticed as the middle of the leaf is the thickest part and covered by cells from the other layers. If you see a plant that seems to have lighter areas in the middle- watch it! Or, better yet, abuse some buds with little hot pins and see if you can confuse the cell layers. Cell layers can change- by chance or with aid....

I don't know enough about cell layers in general, and especially with how they show themselves with bamboo...
P. aureasulcata is thought of as a straight species....
chimerism is unlikely for any "straight species"...as all mutation is potentially unstable...

Any other boo with a groove thing going on without leaf variation, to me, might fall into the the same categary as P. aureasulcata. It must be dna based and not necessary a dominant characteristic.... We shouldn't rule out recessive features as "passable", though.

Striped leafed boos....

well, I'm losing focus and really should learn more about the color combinations out there and how stem colors relate to leaf patterns...

time for my add meds..
work actually.

boonut wrote:If you are ever in Deep South Texas, give me a call..

Thank you, I hope I can make it down there one of these days.

Roy wrote: On my old clump of 'A. Karr', there is a one very small portion of the clump that is still alive and has about 2 very small, almost twig like, culms or branches that show the yellow with green stripes. I think I had better start babying that little piece and see if I can get it to come back and produce new yellow and green striped culms.

That sounds like a good idea. If the plant's flowering clock is reset, you may get to reintroduce 'Alphonse Karr' to the world.

Jeff wrote:P. aureasulcata is thought of as a straight species....
chimerism is unlikely for any "straight species"...as all mutation is potentially unstable...

Many species of Asian plants, including bamboo, were originally introduced to the west from Asian gardens, not from wild collections. Because garden plants tend to be selected for interesting characteristics, these plants that were brought to the west were often mutated varieties, not the wild types. If these garden varieties were the first varieties of the species to be described taxonomically, then they got the basic species name. When the "wild" type was described later, it would be described as the "variety," even though it was actually the original parent type. This is just a result of the rules of taxonomy. I do not understand all the taxonomic complexities of the situation, but this is basically what happened.

The above explains why chimeras like Ph. aureosulcata and ornamental types such as Ph. nigra are named as the "straight species," while P. aureosulcata 'Alata' and Ph. nigra 'Henon' are named as the varieties, even though they probably represent the original wild types (or something close to them).

Roy,

The alphonse Karr that flowered here locally a number of years back was set way back, but did not die.

I hear Crowley's has several large Buddha's belly flowering now.

Bamboo Outlaw wrote:Roy,

The alphonse Karr that flowered here locally a number of years back was set way back, but did not die.

I hear Crowley's has several karge Buddha's belly flowering now.

Bamboo Outlaw,

Glad you jogged my memory. Charlie was one of the vendors at the U. of South Florida's plant sale last weekend. I remember now him telling me one of his Buddha's was flowering profusely. I think it was this one, but could be other ones:

<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... ly.998.jpg" alt="Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa'">

See new related posts here:

http://bambooweb.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p=18148#18148

Seedlings of Bambusa tuldoides 'Ventricosa' versus Bambusa tuldoides

Glen wrote:My understanding is as follows:

Most variegation in bamboo is chimeral variegation. ... Chimeral variegation can occur as a result of a one-time chance mutation in a plant, and it may never occur again, unless it happens because of a genetic predisposition that is present in some plants. ...

Glen,
Thanks for this post. I have been thinking about this message since you posted it and I am starting to think that B. m 'Alphonse Karr' probably is a chimera. In the past my idea of a chimera was something like the canna 'Cleopatra' where it is very obvious. I had thought of variegation in bamboo more of a complete mutation, not as a genetic chimera. If it is a chimera, the genetic difference must be in the rhizome.

A number of years ago I received a load of B. m. 'AK' seed from Chris Skeie in FL. Most of the initial seeds to germinate were green, a few had leaf variegation, and several were all white. Almost all the seeds that germinated later were white. I believe others saw similar results. At the time Chris sent me these pictures of his seedlings and said it was OK to post them since my camera wanted to focus on the soil rather than the seedling.
<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... tripes.jpg" alt="Bambusa multiplex 'Alphonse Karr'">
<img src="http://www.bambooweb.info/images/bamboo ... white_.jpg" alt="Bambusa multiplex 'Alphonse Karr'">
I presume the white seedlings perhaps originated with the cells that were variegated. Does that make sense? Most of these died but a few eventually put out some green or variegated leaves. Eventually they all turned in to green B. multiplex type.

The B. multiplex species must mutate relatively easily in view of all the different variations. I have also seen several plants where the the mutation has started to revert back so I do not believe it is very stable.

I guess in the bigger picture, if all or most bamboo culm and leaf variegation is chimeral, then there are a lot of bamboo to worry about including perhaps, as you note, some bamboo such as Ph aureosulcata.

Glen, thanks again for an informative and thought provoking post.

Mike near Brenham TX

Mike,

My B. m. "A. karr" seed put up so many seedling that had all white leaves. It seemed like about 1/2 of the seedlings were that way, but I think it was the fact that they stood out so much from the other green leaves that made them look so prolific.

I has thought that all my seedlings only had green leaves until they started putting out new growth recently. I see 2 of them have put out variegated leaves again. The leaves will probably turn almost all green again, as the B.m. 'Silverstripe' does.

Since Chris had his B.m. 'A. Karr' flower, I thought that maybe it wasn't the induced flowering by fire and smoke that I used, but I visit my neighbor's backyard a few day ago and the B.m. 'A. Karr' he got as a division from me has never flowered and is a nice looking healthy clump.

Since several of you know a lot more on the variegation and albino issue than I do, I thought I would repost something I posted a little over a year ago:

-----From----------
http://bambooweb.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p=3863#3863
-----3/23/06----------

Here is an oddity I can't explain. The image below shows one of the B. m. 'A. Karr' seeds producing 2 distinctly different plants. As the new plant grows out of the bottom of the seed, it splits into 2 distinctly different plants. The one on the left has chlorophyl and the plant growing up the back right has no chlorophyl. The plant on the left has formed roots and the one on the right is forming a new root without chlorophyl.

I would think that the genetic makeup would be the same, since both plants are coming from the same seed, but apparently not.

very interesting split personality. will the green one stay healthy and the variegated twin then be prone to powdery mildew? ( i grow several different b. multiplex types but only have the mold problem on "a.k.")
is a.k. an intrinsically 'weaker' plant?